I got taken advantage of by a well installer

[ARCOgraphite]

This is more to vent than anything. Today I was taken advantage of big time. Long story short, I moved into my current house 3 weeks ago. Have had an issue where I lose water pressure from my well. Turns out my well only does 3GPM. Installer recommended a second pressure tank to supplement so I have more buffer. The installer was recommended by a family friend and he knows people I know. He installed a pressure tank and pressure switch for $2100. Over $400 of that was labor, so I guess he charges over $200/hr since he was here two hours. Attached is the invoice for your amusement.

I have a drilled well with an expansion tank. A bath RC shower head is under 3gpm wide open. Sounds like the existing air pre-charge and cut in/ out was not adjusted correctly in your system. The drawdown volume in a bladder tank is only a small fraction of the tank gallonage - most of the volume is air.

Is this a 2 story home and was this issue on the second story? Do you water your lawn? What water pressures were you seeing?

Adding a second tank reads like a really bad solution, as if you are using near the 3gpm supply rate, pump will just cut in at say 40psi and never make up after the cut in as draw and fill are at the same rate. A filled expansion tank should handle a toilet flush. or about 10 mins of doing dishes in a sink without a pump cut in.

I would like to hear more about tests the plumber performed before he made recommendations.

I "allowd myself" to be "shafted" by a well company a few years ago too when my pump died. Long story, but you become really desperate when you have no running water for a day or so and then the crew arrives and says they can start the job in and hour, you feel "saved" like a damsel in distress and just open that cheque book lol.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Extra pressure tank which probably only provides about 20 gallons additional surge capacity was the wrong solution to low-volume well problem. Proper solution would be a holding tank. In my area where wells commonly only produce 2-3 gpm, in-ground holding tanks about 2000 gal capacity are used.

Actually, I have seen only about 4 to 5 gal in practice** when rated at 6 gal (20 gallon nominal tank)
__________________________________________________________________________________

**with a high cut in pressure set point for multi-story home with deep well >175ft.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Is that a well that is both nice looking and doesn't need to be pumped?

Quite good mouthfeel and finish, also. lol.

 

[walterjay]

View attachment 237481
Same pressure tank (pressure switch included) on Amazon for 1/3 the cost.

FYI. If you bought that tank from the internet you would have zero warranty. Goulds prohibits the sale of their products on line and will not warranty the tank if it is even one day old.
Something is not right about that sale. Maybe stolen.

 

[SHOZ]

Sounds like you need two pumps and larger tanks. One pump to draw from the slow filling first and a jet pump pressurize the second one.

 

[brandon9715]

I have a drilled well with an expansion tank. A bath RC shower head is under 3gpm wide open. Sounds like the existing air pre-charge and cut in/ out was not adjusted correctly in your system. The drawdown volume in a bladder tank is only a small fraction of the tank gallonage - most of the volume is air.

Is this a 2 story home and was this issue on the second story? Do you water your lawn? What water pressures were you seeing?

Adding a second tank reads like a really bad solution, as if you are using near the 3gpm supply rate, pump will just cut in at say 40psi and never make up after the cut in as draw and fill are at the same rate. A filled expansion tank should handle a toilet flush. or about 10 mins of doing dishes in a sink without a pump cut in.

I would like to hear more about tests the plumber performed before he made recommendations.

I "allowd myself" to be "shafted" by a well company a few years ago too when my pump died. Long story, but you become really desperate when you have no running water for a day or so and then the crew arrives and says they can start the job in and hour, you feel "saved" like a damsel in distress and just open that cheque book lol.

Single story ranch, I live alone. I do not water my lawn or use much water in general. When I was on city water in the past I averaged 1,000 gallons a month is all. I noticed the drop in pressure when I would do the laundry and then want to wash my hands or something else with water. My water PSI had dropped to 15 psi at the time and I was just getting a trickle. I assumed it was the pump. The plumber also said it could be the pump until he saw the well produces 3gpm. That’s when he decided to show up with the pressure tank instead of a new pump. So far I have not had issues, but who knows if that will last.

 

[brandon9715]

FYI. If you bought that tank from the internet you would have zero warranty. Goulds prohibits the sale of their products on line and will not warranty the tank if it is even one day old.
Something is not right about that sale. Maybe stolen.

Good to know. I checked a supply house and found it for $650 locally. I understand everyone needs to make money, but when he told me it was good news and that it would be cheaper than a pump, I was happy. Then he showed up with the tank and charged me $600 above his quote for the pump.

 

[walterjay]

Fortunately you got back $300.00 It must have played on his conscience. With the money back it was an ok price.
In the event that you still don't have enough water you can add another well tank which would be the cheapest option and give you a few more gallons on tap or go the route of a non pressurized storage system. I have installed a few of those. Get multiple quotes.

 

[brandon9715]

Fortunately you got back $300.00 It must have played on his conscience. With the money back it was an ok price.
In the event that you still don't have enough water you can add another well tank which would be the cheapest option and give you a few more gallons on tap or go the route of a non pressurized storage system. I have installed a few of those. Get multiple quotes.

Still waiting on the $300. He said he would drop by yesterday but never showed. Hopefully he still does eventually.

 

[doitmyself]

Welcome to the school of hard knocks. DIY sometimes turns out as a cluster bomb also. Chock it up to experience and move forward more wise.

FYI, I would have been p.o.ed too. Glad you spoke up and will be getting $300 back.

 

[brandon9715]

He showed up with the $300 today. He was not happy, and said he “needs to make money”. I thanked him for the check and told him to have a good one. I will not speak ill of him but also will not recommend him or use him for work again. I’ll just stick with one of the big companies around.

 

[Delta]

This has always been on the back of my mind having a well. When I bought my house I could have got a depth and GPM test, but money was VERY tight and I didn't do it. Kicking myself for that now. There are three people living here and the other two use a LOT of water, even after me telling them to knock it off. Somehow it keeps up. At this point I'm more worried about the single line septic drainage field holding it all. For the time being I have a backup source of water having a 2,000ish gallon cistern. Health department would throw a fit, but at least I could flush the darn toilet!

$200/hr seems to be the going rate for plumbers. Guy charged me that to repair a leak on a copper line going to my heat registers. The thing that burned my britches is he charged $200 for the service call. Usually those are only like $90-$100. However it was the day after Christmas and I was not feeling it. I know how to solder copper, I was just unsure how to drain and then refill/bleed the system. You know darn well I payed attention to how that was done!

 

[ARCOgraphite]

He showed up with the $300 today. He was not happy, and said he “needs to make money”. I thanked him for the check and told him to have a good one. I will not speak ill of him but also will not recommend him or use him for work again. I’ll just stick with one of the big companies around.

Moral to contractors? Don't pad labour into parts on an invoice. If you need to charge more, use a fixed install charge or state your hourly rate in the estimate. If it's 300 - an hour - so be it.

I now see contrators up here leaving costs off the parts on the invoice and just recording the final charges.

My roofer estimator greatly overestimated roof squares on my recent roofing job (last year) and I had 7 bundles (5 unopened) and a ton of drip edging (unopened boxes and perforation boots, gaskets (no perforations on job) 2 pallets of stuff. I got no credit for that.

Hope that water is now working well.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

This has always been on the back of my mind having a well. When I bought my house I could have got a depth and GPM test, but money was VERY tight and I didn't do it. Kicking myself for that now. There are three people living here and the other two use a LOT of water, even after me telling them to knock it off. Somehow it keeps up. At this point I'm more worried about the single line septic drainage field holding it all. For the time being I have a backup source of water having a 2,000ish gallon cistern. Health department would throw a fit, but at least I could flush the darn toilet!
... .

Kids? Maybe they need instruction. We save a lot of water (and time) in the shower by wetting down a bit, shut off the water, soap up and scrub, then turn water back on to rinse. Tub baths prohibited, Everyone should be doing this.

Also the Frigidaire compact front loader washer saves a ton. I have an old drilled well, just trying to nurse it. Same with the leach field

enjoy your Labour Day!

 

[Delta]

Kids? Maybe they need instruction. We save a lot of water (and time) in the shower by wetting down a bit, shut off the water, soap up and scrub, then turn water back on to rinse. Tub baths prohibited, Everyone should be doing this.

Also the Frigidaire compact front loader washer saves a ton. I have an old drilled well, just trying to nurse it. Same with the leach field

enjoy your Labour Day!

Two old ladies

I have given up at this point explaining things. The other issue is toilet paper usage. The whole top layer of the septic tank is all paper, but more than the usual. I have to get it pumped annually as it's old and on the verge of failing. That's a $30,000 expense I'm holding off as long as I can.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Two old ladies

I have given up at this point explaining things. The other issue is toilet paper usage. The whole top layer of the septic tank is all paper, but more than the usual. I have to get it pumped annually as it's old and on the verge of failing. That's a $30,000 expense I'm holding off as long as I can.

I moved to a lined waste basket for used TP in my bathroom. Surprisingly doesn't smell.

That ain't gonna happen with the ladies I would bet.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I just saw the OP contractor has a line item for parts and materials tax!

He is not a reseller. He paid the tax. Never seen that done up here in NH. This Makes for sloppy/confusing bookkeeping.

Maybe he just transferred his supply house invoice.

Still want to know why he installed another tank. The tanks is sized to not short cycle the pump, so a 20gal nominal (5-6 gal water)
is wellmate more than adequate. That tank's air bladder supplies the house pressure - so if it was 15 psi then the take pre charge was low**
________________________
**unless multiple usage points overwhelmed a low capability system.

O.P.:

Curious if he really tested (you witnessed) the pump capability at the entry point and also tested the well recovery gallonage because the 3 gpm number rate at is suspect for a 1/2 hp 115v 4" deep submersible (200TDhead).

I would bet you pump does better than that .

- Arco

 

[Delta]

The well honestly might need hydro-fracked or a large storage tank may be in order. Some areas just don't product water and you might get 1gpm. The mistake a lot of people do is put up a house and then drill the well only to find out they're SOL.

 

[dlundblad]

You should have done the work yourself. I doubt he’s getting his stuff on Amazon either so it’s hard to just go by that.

In the electrical world, Lowe’s, HD, Menards and even Amazon is cheaper than the electrical supply houses. I normally use the supply house for only stuff I can’t find at box stores or Amazon. Discounts are decent since they are through my employer, but not as good as one would think either. Amazon is still usually my go to.

 

[dlundblad]

When my dad knew what I was making working in a lab right of college, he laughed in my face and said you can still get into plumbing, they make real money.

The real funny part is I've never actually hired a plumber. I've done all sorts of plumbing myself. No leaks dad!!

Met a pipe fitter (they don’t like being call plumbers. Lol) last month who ironically lives ~15 mins from me. Makes 140k a year with a company vehicle.

Granted he was commercial as opposed to residential, but good money nonetheless for a 7-3 job.