I got my pair of Filter Magnets installed today.

[UncleDave]

That is very interesting, but how or why could magnets increase oxidation stability of oil? I don't understand, but am intrigued.

I found the article.

Enhanced lubricant oxidation stability: Many lubricants are highly stressed due to exposures from pressurized oxygen, suspended moisture and heat. Ferrous particles are known oxidation catalysts which can figuratively "fan the fire". Their removal from the oil does just the opposite, resulting in an oxidation suppressant. In certain cases, this can permit less expensive lubricants (vs. synthetics, for instance) to be used in applications to achieve extended service life (longer oil drains).

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/2466/rationale-for-using-magnetic-particle-collectors

 

[ZeeOSix]

tldw; filter magnets just work at extending filter life, they don't do anything for engine wear

He needs to do a full OCI of at least 5K miles on a gas engine with and without a filter magnet. Not just drive 500 miles and then put a filter magnet on for 20 miles. That would be a useless flawed test.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I found the article.

Enhanced lubricant oxidation stability: Many lubricants are highly stressed due to exposures from pressurized oxygen, suspended moisture and heat. Ferrous particles are known oxidation catalysts which can figuratively "fan the fire". Their removal from the oil does just the opposite, resulting in an oxidation suppressant. In certain cases, this can permit less expensive lubricants (vs. synthetics, for instance) to be used in applications to achieve extended service life (longer oil drains).

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/2466/rationale-for-using-magnetic-particle-collectors

Here's the other Machinery Lubrication article that was referenced in the link you posted.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/794/magnetic-filtration

 

[ZeeOSix]

I've always wondered about those. I can see how they would be most useful on a new engine where there might be residual swarf from manufacturing and the tiny burrs that wear off in the first hours of operation. I'm not certain they would help a great deal once broken in because wouldn't most of the wear metals be from bearings, which are non-magnetic?

Journal bearings only wear if the oil viscosity it too low and too much stress is put on the bearings. Bump up a grade to add some MOFT for more wear protection. Wear from rings, cylinders, cam lobes, followers, etc is still going on at some level after break-in because those engine components are in mostly boundary or some level of mixed boundary lubrication. They are always rubbing on each other to some degree, even with oil trying to separate them during movement. I still get some level of magnetic "black sludge" on my magnets even after the engine is fully broken in.

 

[CarlB]

He needs to do a full OCI of at least 5K miles on a gas engine with and without a filter magnet. Not just drive 500 miles and then put a filter magnet on for 20 miles. That would be a useless flawed test.

His test makes sense to me if the goal is to determine if the magnet is catching something that the filter doesn't. It should basically "clean" the metal up in a measurable way.

Could eliminate the engine from the mix entirely.
-Contaminated oil with UOA sample
-Bench test system running through an oil filter
-Run it without magnet, take UOA sample
-Run it with magnet, take UOA sample

You can then compare the effect of filter magnet to the overall ferrous metal contamination.

This is all assuming the goal is particles small enough for UOA.

 

[ZeeOSix]

His test makes sense to me if the goal is to determine if the magnet is catching something that the filter doesn't. It should basically "clean" the metal up in a measurable way.

Could eliminate the engine from the mix entirely.
-Contaminated oil with UOA sample
-Bench test system running through an oil filter
-Run it without magnet, take UOA sample
-Run it with magnet, take UOA sample

You can then compare the effect of filter magnet to the overall ferrous metal contamination.

This is all assuming the goal is particles small enough for UOA.

My main point is that his methodology is flawed for his "new test" on his wife's gas engine by doing it with only 500 miles on the recently changed oil. The level of ferrous wear metals is going to be very low to start with since the oil was just changed. He needs to run it out to at least 5K miles, then pull a UOA sample, then install the filter magnet and drive it another say 100 miles and do the second UOA sample. In his first test, he drove 50 miles with the magnet installed and he saw visible evidence of captured ferrous material, so we know that magnets catch the stuff ferrous particles that the filter can't catch.

 

[CarlB]

My main point is that his methodology flaw for his "new test" on his wife's gas engine is doing it with only 500 miles on the recently changed oil. The level of ferrous wear metals is going to be very low to start with since the oil was just changed. He needs to run it out to at least 5K miles, then pull a UOA sample, then install the filter magnet and drive it another say 100 miles and do the second UOA sample. In his first test, he drove 50 miles with the magnet installed and he saw visible evidence of captured ferrous material, so we know that magnets catch the stuff ferrous particles that the filter can't catch.

That's not my understanding at all. The issue is determining if that is material the filter would have caught anyway (without the magnet). If the material is on the filter housing or the filter media isn't of any consequence alone.

 

[Pablo]

I'll try to recall this when I do next OCI on Accord. That's still about 3400 miles in the future. What would you like to see if it will stick to it inside the can? from how far? I think it's just like a magnetic drain plug but bigger area. Many people agree they are not needed either but also on the really can't hurt camp as long as it doesn't break and somehow float around.

I do need to order one for the Pilot again since I'm using the smaller diameter PG filters now on it.

I'm confused by this question: "What would you like to see if it will stick to it inside the can?" What are you asking exactly?

 

[ZeeOSix]

That's not my understanding at all. The issue is determining if that is material the filter would have caught anyway (without the magnet). If the material is on the filter housing or the filter media isn't of any consequence alone.

On the test on his truck, the ferrous material that the filter magnet caught after 50 miles of use was the particulate in the oil that the filter media could never catch and retain. Those particles won't stick to the can if there's not magnet on the filter can. If the particles are stuck to the can due to the magnet, then they are not in the circulating oil anymore.

 

[CarlB]

On the test on his truck, the ferrous material that the filter magnet caught after 50 miles of use was the particulate in the oil that the filter media could never catch and retain,

That's assuming that a magnet directly on the side of a filter can't pull anything away from media.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That's assuming that a magnet directly on the side of a filter can't pull anything away from media.

I highly doubt it could do that since almost all particulate is embedded in filter media, especially if it's super small like ferrous wear particles. Plus, there is always oil flow going through the media when the engine is running, which keeps particulate pushed in to the media. If a magnet on the can "pulled" any ferrous particulate off the media, it would have to do it when the engine isn't running. How about the guys here who have installed small round magnets on the base plate of the filter, which captures the ferrous particles before it even goes in to the filter. There's no way those magnets could pull already captured ferrous particles off the filter media. Same thing with a super strong magnetic drain plug. It captures a lot of ferrous debris without being anywhere near the oil filter.

 

[CarlB]

I highly doubt it could do that since almost all particulate is embedded in filter media, especially if it's super small like ferrous wear particles. How about the guys here who have installed small magnets on the base plate of the filter, which captures the ferrous particles before it even goes in to the filter. There's no way those magnets could pull already captured ferrous particles of the filter media. Same thing with a super strong magnetic drain plug. It captures a lot of ferrous debris without being anywhere near the oil filter.

Again, sounds like chicken or the egg. If it captures it before the filter, we can't know if it would move past the filter. He's trying to minimize the potential for that false positive.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Again, sounds like chicken or the egg. If it captures it before the filter, we can't know if it would move past the filter. He's trying to minimize the potential for that false positive.

Even a filter that's 99% @ 20u is not going to catch a lot of the ferrous particles that magnets in the oil will catch. There's a lot of that particulate that just stays suspended in the oil and goes around and around through the oiling system. The oil filter can't catch it all, it's impossible unless the filter was like 99+% @ 2-3 microns.

Run the oil for at least 5K miles on an engine with a steel oil pan. Can't add any make-up oil over the OCI. Take a UOA sample. Then put a bunch of super strong magnets on the oil pan - that ensures the magnets aren't "pulling it out of the filter media". Run the engine for another 200 miles to ensure enough time to collect ferrous particulate that the filter could never catch. Take a second UOA sample. Get an accurate UOA and an accurate ISO 4406 partilce count too, from at least 2 or 3 different test labs.

 

[CarlB]

Even a filter that's 99% @ 20u is not going to catch a lot of the ferrous particles that magnets in the oil will catch. There's a lot of that particulate that just stays suspended in the oil and goes around and around through the oiling system. The oil filter can't catch it all, it's impossible unless the filter was like 99+% @ 2-3 microns.

Run the oil for at least 5K miles on an engine with a steel oil pan. Can't add any make-up oil over the OCI. Take a UOA sample. Then put a bunch of super strong magnets on the oil pan - that ensures the magnets aren't "pulling it out of the filter media". Run the engine for another 200 miles to ensure enough time to collect ferrous particulate that the filter could never catch. Take a seconds UOA sample. Get an accurate UOA and an accurate ISO 4406 partilce count too, from at least 2 or 3 different test labs.

Now we are on the same page.

 

[tblt44]

Unless metallic chunks, which is bad anyway, they collect the grey pasty stuff like you find on magnetic drain plugs etc. Way back videos etc., probably promotion for FilterMag, reduces the wear cycle snowball. Eliminate the small so it can't create slightly larger etc, etc.

DON'T keep your fingers to close when you put it on, it snaps hard, pulls off harder. Slide off is easiest.

Leaves little rectangles of junk collected as seen on back inside of this one.
View attachment 293946

OR a 21 year old picture from my Sequoia. Holy carp, have I been cutting filters for that long? My 21 year old daughter is right, I need a hobby.
View attachment 293948

Thanks for the pic, I was gona say they don't work but now I see it is beneficial for at least the magnetic wear materials

 

[ZeeOSix]

Now we are on the same page.

Yeah, that would take out the very unlikely chance (and prove) if the filter mag was "pulling out already captured ferrous debris" ... which I highly doubt it could for the reasons I mentioned. He put a filter mag on for 50 miles and it pulled out ferrous material in the oil that could be visually seen that the filter could never capture and retain. And depending on how long that oil was ran would also have a factor on how much of that debris was in the oil before the filter mag was installed.

 

[BHopkins]

I've always wondered about those. I can see how they would be most useful on a new engine where there might be residual swarf from manufacturing and the tiny burrs that wear off in the first hours of operation. I'm not certain they would help a great deal once broken in because wouldn't most of the wear metals be from bearings, which are non-magnetic?

In one of his recent Youtube videos, the oil geek suggests this very thing, but using a magnetic oil drain plug, instead of the filter magnets. He implied that it would have value through the first few oil changes, until you observe that the engine wear has significantly reduced and stabilized. His reasoning is the first time that I have found any real value in a magnetic oil drain plug, or filter magnets. I've always considered them a fun experiment, that enhances the entertainment of our oil changes, but unnecessary to protect an engine from premature wear and failure. By premature, I mean that the rest of the car will wear out long before most modern engines.