I found this interesting, regarding the cold...........

[y_p_w]

Tell them that.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technol...freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here

I noted that a charged vehicle will still move, albeit at decreased battery efficiency. If it won't move, it's because the battery was at too low a state of charge and was allowed to get to that point. If there's a problem, it's in planning for the conditions. If you're stuck in a Tesla in Chicago during the winter, it's clearly a "failure of imagination" for not keeping it near fully charged. It does take planning to charge a battery when it's cold and it would probably be better to keep it in a higher state of charge as a "best practice".

I remember keeping a gas tank topped off when I was driving a car in winter conditions since I was worried that I might need the engine running for heat if I got stuck, in addition to driving a lot in lower gears for better control in the snow.

I get that it happened, but it was preventable. I'd hope it's more a learning experience for the drivers rather than the apocalypse.

 

[Ws6]

In true 4wd systems usually the front axle is slightly over sped to help low speed turning performance on slick surfaces, which actually could slightly diminish traction driving up a straight incline as the axles are fighting each other slightly. I don't know if the part time 4wd systems do this or not, and a true AWD system with a centre diff doesn't need to overspeed the front axle either, unless it frequently locks the centre diff.
An EV with no mechanical connection between axles could perfectly match the front axle overspeeding to match the turn radius. Do they, I don't know?

A 2 motor EV with open diffs in theory offers no advantage, to open front and rear diff AWD in a gas car, as it still relies on braking individual wheels to limit wheel spin, which I think is better than open diffs, but not nearly as good as a locked diff. If an EV has 4 motors or locking diffs, it could just turn all the wheels at the same speed regardless of grip which is a pretty good way to climb a snowy hill. My atv has a locked rear diff, but in 4wd with the front locked ,it climbs much much better or plows snow better, than with the front diff open.

My EV is a dual motor with an elocker on the rear diff. Traction is exceptional. Here's a quick 0-30 in the snow. Still managed a sub 3 second 60' time, lol! Many noobs on a track with a manual sports car without launch control will cut a 2.1-2.3, for reference. Maintained 0.3-4g this run.

This is just flooring it and letting the computer figure it out. Notice the throttle indicator bar bottom center dash, and the blinking traction intervention light bottom right. I just floored it pretty much.



This is me feathering the throttle and trying to help the computer out:


As you can see, the computer is pretty good...

 

[Cujet]

we are talking about 100's of thousands of EV's being affected by the cold. Up to 60% less range, unable to charge, being towed away because the cars died while waiting hours for a chance to attempt to charge

You hit upon a key point. I leave my older car up North and it sits all winter. The "energy" in the gas tank does not "dissipate" over time. And a wintertime full tank gets 350 miles range, every single time.

We can certainly place some blame on EV owners for not understanding the battery/energy/cold relationship properly. As this is really not something we've had to do for the last 100 years. A bit of training is in order.

 

[alarmguy]

30 years from now there will be masses of ICE vehicles still on the road. What's going to have to happen is a whole additional coast to coast charging network will have to be built to accommodate EV's. Duplicating the existing (but different) fueling system that already in place is going to be astronomically expensive. Hope it does not strain the grids too much.

This is incorrect. Lithium battery powered cars will never replace gasoline.
You have to think into the future and it’s not a lithium battery.
Current technology will be antiquated in 15 years if that long

 

[y_p_w]

Actually, the article was about lines at Superchargers. Sometimes a key fallacy with quoting articles is mis-quoting them. Nothing said the EVs wouldn't charge or couldn't move. They had to move to get in line for the charger, right?

"CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.

A station with 20 Tesla Superchargers, off West Touhy Avenue in Skokie, was full almost all day on Monday, with drivers waiting nearby for spots to open up."

I'm thinking there were the occasional drivers who were low on charge and keeping the heat running. If that's the case waiting too long might have dropped it to the point where it doesn't move. But yeah - cold temperatures alone don't cause a battery to stop working at all.

Obviously the solution would be more charging infrastructure. I looked at Chicago and for a city of that size (over 200 square miles) I counted 54 Superchargers in 5 locations and not that many in the surrounding suburbs. But I've been to the area and most people commuting have homes and could ostensibly charge at home. For these conditions I would think that charging to more than 80% (possibly 100%) at home might make sense to have a certain reserve for the conditions.

 

[bbhero]

We were discussing why we haven't had the problem and what we did to mitigate it and then someone came in talking about gas stations.

You have a garage right ?

Is that heated ?

Or attached to a home that is heated ?

Whether anyone likes it or not … EVs right now are the cars of the 1930s… It is very, very, very early in their use and application.

Does not mean that it’s bad or wrong. Just quite early still.

 

[Ws6]

This is incorrect. Lithium battery powered cars will never replace gasoline.
You have to think into the future and it’s not a lithium battery.
Current technology will be antiquated in 15 years if that long

Maybe. Its been 15 years already and it's not, though.

 

[Ws6]

You have a garage right ?

Is that heated ?

Or attached to a home that is heated ?

Whether anyone likes it or not … EVs right now are the cars of the 1930s… It is very, very, very early in their use and application.

Does not mean that it’s bad or wrong. Just quite early still.

I have an unheated, detached, uninsulated garage. Its fine.

 

[y_p_w]

You hit upon a key point. I leave my older car up North and it sits all winter. The "energy" in the gas tank does not "dissipate" over time. And a wintertime full tank gets 350 miles range, every single time.

We can certainly place some blame on EV owners for not understanding the battery/energy/cold relationship properly. As this is really not something we've had to do for the last 100 years. A bit of training is in order.

There are all the vampire electronics in a car. I don't know about the gas tank, but how many people go back to their cars after months and find that the 12V battery has died? The learning experience there is to hook up a battery maintainer for any vehicle stored for months without driving.

Lithium-ion batteries don't actually lose that much capacity from self discharge. But the vehicle is drawing power. So it would make sense to try to turn off as much of the draw as possible. And possibly hook it up to external power and leave it at 50% charging (which is best for the overall condition of the battery). That would actually be ideal for most portable electronics kept in long-term storage, if it were allowed.

 

[billt460]

Maybe. Its been 15 years already and it's not, though.

15 years? We've had electric cars since the start of the 20th century. In 1900, 28 percent of the cars on the road in the US were electric. Today it's less than 2%.

That's not the direction they should be moving in.... But it is.

 

[bbhero]

I have an unheated, detached, uninsulated garage. Its fine.

Well… that’s good.

How much amperage goes to heat the battery ?

How much goes to charge that battery ?


What is the percentage of charge in that battery when you get home ?

What is the percentage of charge the next am or pm ?

How far is it driven in a daily trip ?



EVs HAVE big weaknesses in the cold or very high temps,. Especially if they are used for longer and longer trips.

Not just going 5-10 miles or 50 miles round trip in a day.

Just like cars with regular motors did in the 1920a and 1930s into the 1940s.

 

[Ws6]

Well… that’s good.

How much amperage goes to heat the battery ?

How much goes to charge that battery ?


What is the percentage of charge in that battery when you get home ?

What is the percentage of charge the next am or pm ?

How far is it driven in a daily trip ?



EVs HAVE big weaknesses in the cold or very high temps,. Especially if they are used for longer and longer trips.

Not just going 5-10 miles or 50 miles round trip in a day.

Just like cars with regular motors did in the 1920a and 1930s into the 1940s.

I have no clue about how much heats it, etc.

I charge to 80%. I have an 80mi commute both ways/total. In 0f weather, I arrive home at 25-30%. I get home and plug in at 9am. I leave at 6pm with a 80% charge. I have my charging dialed way back to 24 amps. I can charge at 40 amps if I wanted. I have not noticed the charge taking longer in 0f than 80f weather, percent for percent, so I doubt much is being wasted.

 

[whiplash473]

This guy does fantastic videos and this one is no exception. Very interesting and put some things into perspective since I think many of us lose track that many of us do not live the same as others. Some in apartments and some in houses, for instance.

 

[bbhero]

I have no clue about how much heats it, etc.

I charge to 80%. I have an 80mi commute both ways/total. In 0f weather, I arrive home at 25-30%. I get home and plug in at 9am. I leave at 6pm with a 80% charge. I have my charging dialed way back to 24 amps. I can charge at 40 amps if I wanted. I have not noticed the charge taking longer in 0f than 80f weather, percent for percent, so I doubt much is being wasted.

One note tough ..:

You aren’t going to tell me that is doesn’t charge slower a bit at 0 degrees Fahrenheit. .

It will.

However… being that is slow charging for
8-12 hours it doesn’t matter either.

It doesn’t matter.

A battery that is cold or really hot accepts less charge… That is a fact.

The future in getting EVs bettter and better is heat management system improvements and cooling improvements.

Just like regular motors needed the SAME improvements back 100 years ago going forward.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have an unheated, detached, uninsulated garage. Its fine.

I have a garage, but no snow and no cold. It's insulated, just in case it starts to snow! Ya never know, right?

 

[billt460]

So.... In sever cold weather it has to use juice from the battery to heat itself.

And in severe hot desert weather it has to cool itself, once again using its own power. And all of this depletes the range a rather large amount.

 

[JeffKeryk]

15 years? We've had electric cars since the start of the 20th century. In 1900, 28 percent of the cars on the road in the US were electric. Today it's less than 2%.

That's not the direction they should be moving in.... But it is.

Misleading. Back then only the very rich could own a car. I think they went 10 to 15 miles on a charge. Very few roads and they were dirt.
In 1900, there were maybe 8000 registered vehicles on the road.
In 1908, the year Henry Ford began producing the Model T, manufacturers produced 65,000 motor vehicles.

 

[UncleDave]

But it goes beyond that. There is large battery disposal once its all done. EV's are not enviro friendly.

Kind of reminds me of wind energy. Cradle to grave has to be taken into account.

https://cen.acs.org/environment/recycling/companies-recycle-wind-turbine-blades/100/i27

I dont personally care about the green part, but some do.

Even including the battery the EV still wins, it's just a matter of how many mile and what source of energy is being used.

Between 18 and 84K seems to be the range.

EE does a decent job getting here, there are some things we've quibbled about here on bitog, but he's pretty good.

 

[02SE]

If I lived near Chicago, I'd be driving around with my portable generator, making money from stranded EV owners.

 

[Ws6]

One note tough ..:

You aren’t going to tell me that is doesn’t charge slower a bit at 0 degrees Fahrenheit. .

It will.

However… being that is slow charging for
8-12 hours it doesn’t matter either.

It doesn’t matter.

A battery that is cold or really hot accepts less charge… That is a fact.

The future in getting EVs bettter and better is heat management system improvements and cooling improvements.

Just like regular motors needed the SAME improvements back 100 years ago going forward.

It charges at 5.3-5.6kw, same as when it's warm. That is such a miniscule charge that the battery doesn't care what temp it is to accept it. The dash estimated charge times are very accurate, and are the same in cold (0F) or hot. What DOES change is the DC fast charging speeds, especially if you neglect to precondition it.