I found this interesting, regarding the cold...........

[dnewton3]

Since no two vehicles can travel the same patch of ice or snow, this can never be proven.

But real world experience here, having owned and driven ICE with good AWD systems, and EV, on the same tires, I can tell you the EV is the better tool for the job. You cannot argue with the physics of a propulsion system that can infinitely and instantly modulate power from 0 rpm. Just can't be beat, all things equal.

I do believe the EV would probably be better overall; in that we agree.
What I disagree with is how the video purports this advantage to be monumental, and it's probably not.

If you equalized the vehicle weights, and the tires, and the surface, the EV advantage would likely be much less.
- In the first part of the video when they all went uphill on a unique path, the EV (using traction control) smoked the other two by a very wide margin. That margin of victory would have been much less if the other criteria were "apples to apples".
- In the off-camber portion of the test, again if they all had the same surface and weights, the EV may well have still prevailed, but by a much lesser margin.

Honestly, given that the biggest variable is driver skill in poor weather, the topic of EV superiority over AWD ICE systems is kinda moot, IMO.

 

[Ws6]

Yes, the Acura, sorry not a fan. It does have a better ride quality than a Subaru I'll give you that. Truth be told I'm not a Subaru fan either, but they do handle snow very well. Maybe when I see some real world non-biased testing my opinion will change. Those links you posted are interesting, but as @dnewton3 pointed out, they prove nothing.

What Acura did you drive? Did you actually compare it in snow/on ice, etc. to the scooby?

 

[whiplash473]

Well for starters GW is the same as Climate Change. The term Climate Change takes the next step as it attempts to describe the potential climatic changes caused by a warming planet.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Ws6]

I do believe the EV would probably be better overall; in that we agree.
What I disagree with is how the video purports this advantage to be monumental, and it's probably not.

If you equalized the vehicle weights, and the tires, and the surface, the EV advantage would likely be much less.
- In the first part of the video when they all went uphill on a unique path, the EV (using traction control) smoked the other two by a very wide margin. That margin of victory would have been much less if the other criteria were "apples to apples".
- In the off-camber portion of the test, again if they all had the same surface and weights, the EV may well have still prevailed, but by a much lesser margin.

Honestly, given that the biggest variable is driver skill in poor weather, the topic of EV superiority over AWD ICE systems is kinda moot, IMO.

Driver skill has little to do with making it up my driveway, as as soon as you spin a tire...you're done. So you can only feather the brake/throttle so much in an ICE vehicle on that hill. Getting a running start doesn't work because there is a pit in front of it, and you can't be going too fast and "make the corner" to go up the hill if you avoid the pit, so really, it's about raw traction. Also, if you rely on momentum...you will end up about 3/4 up the hill when that stalls out and your grip won't be enough, and then you're sliding backward down 200ft of a 300ft hill, and good luck with that. SO yes, it pretty much is a "game of mechanical grip" in bad weather.

That may not look like much in photos, but it's a 300ft long, 27% grade incline. Tracks courtesy of my GT.

 

[demarpaint]

What Acura did you drive? Did you actually compare it in snow/on ice, etc. to the scooby?

2023 TLX AWD, sorry we weren't having this debate at the time for me to do testing. It's probably best we agree to disagree on this too, or this could go on all day. YT is not going to change my mind, post up some real testing, same tires, same conditions etc. and you might convince me. I'm open minded. Otherwise it is going to be my opinion, and your opinion clashing, again.

 

[Torrid]

I agree, a significant amount of the population will find an EV useful, as I would too. Maybe right now @5% if that. I dont see what that cant grow to 20% That is significant. I do think they would flop if I wasnt chipping in my household income for others to buy them, though as I may one day take other peoples money to buy one.
My only posts are that battery powered EVs can not replace the ICE as a majority, its not possible and there is no reason for it.

I’ve said as much and the fuel economy standards are set to do just that. EVs raise CAFE numbers to allow other cars to still be made. CAFE standards are set specifically at this time to make sure any company won’t be able to only make ICE vehicles. More efficient ICE cars could assist that as well. It can’t be long though before they yank the rug out from under the truck double standard.

That tax credit sure selling some cars though.

 

[Ws6]

I’ve said as much and the fuel economy standards are set to do just that. EVs raise CAFE numbers to allow other cars to still be made. CAFE standards are set specifically at this time to make sure any company won’t be able to only make ICE vehicles. More efficient ICE cars could assist that as well. I can’t be long though before they yank the rug out from under the truck double standard.

That tax credit sure selling some cars though.

I love how people pretend that the taxes I pay are "theirs". Maybe they can come do some of my work, lol!

 

[Torrid]

I take everything I see on the web with a grain of salt. Without wasting a minute more of my time to check this video it begs the question who ran the test, an EV proponent, or ICE proponent? Then a saying from way back in the day used here on Bitog, pay for the test, get the results you're looking for. IMO Subaru still has the AWD system many car makers wish they had.

Some of us just like cars though. I don’t understand the idea of everyone having an axe to grind and routing for the EV or ICE. These conversations become genuinely heinous with self proclaimed car guys that who will crudely question the sexuality of people for the vehicle they drive.

The pick a side mentality of it is weird, but you’re right it’s happening more often than not. “I don’t care” is almost never the thought from anyone. I tend to drive both sides of that argument nuts because I don’t want to marry myself to one side or the other because I don’t see it as anything other than a choice. Others see it as their choice being removed which I see as being manufactured and the driving force for flat out rage. I may be done arguing merits of anything because that’s not what anyone wants. They just want to be right, no matter what that means. We’ve all been having this same conversation for years, most keep saying the same thing, and no matter what we do the market is the market however it happens to be shaped.

 

[demarpaint]

Some of us just like cars though. I don’t understand the idea of everyone having an axe to grind and routing for the EV or ICE. These conversations become genuinely heinous with self proclaimed car guys that who will crudely question the sexuality of people for the vehicle they drive.

The pick a side mentality of it is weird, but you’re right it’s happening more often than not. “I don’t care” is almost never the thought from anyone. I tend to drive both sides of that argument nuts because I don’t want to marry myself to one side or the other because I don’t see it as anything other than a choice. Others see it as their choice being removed which I see as being manufactured and the driving force for flat out rage. I may be done arguing merits of anything because that’s not what anyone wants. They just want to be right, no matter what that means. We’ve all been having this same conversation for years, most keep saying the same thing, and no matter what we do the market is the market however it happens to be shaped.

I agree with most of what you say, and I love cars too. That's probably why I spend as much time as I do here. Where we might differ is our views of the market and how it happens to be shaped. I see the market being manipulated, with things like all EV's by such and such a year, and the EPA and their unobtainable fuel economy standards that need to be met by such and such a year. I call it hobbling an industry. Then we have the incentives to buy EVs. IMO the market seems to be skewed by lets call it external forces pushing the EV agenda. That could get voted out later this year, and then the market might start to operate the way a market is supposed to operate. Lets call this two differing opinions of "the market shaping."

 

[billt460]

Another thing is that it's generally accepted EV religion that you shouldn't charge past 80% for long battery life. That cuts into range even more. Especially in frigid weather when you need heat and de icing.

That's like having a ICE car, and only being able to fill the tank 3/4 full. Not to mention if you do choose to 100% charge for maximum range, it takes much longer. Especially in the cold.

 

[whiplash473]

Another thing is that it's generally accepted EV religion that you shouldn't charge past 80% for long battery life. That cuts into range even more. Especially in frigid weather when you need heat and de icing.

That's like having a ICE car, and only being able to fill the tank 3/4 full. Not to mention if you do choose to 100% charge for maximum range, it takes much longer. Especially in the cold.

Imagine the pump slowing down after it filled X amount of gallons. Haha.

EDIT: I'm not going to think about different tank sizes, how the pump would know, etc on a hypothetical. The thought just cracked me up.

 

[Torrid]

Another thing is that it's generally accepted EV religion that you shouldn't charge past 80% for long battery life. That cuts into range even more. Especially in frigid weather when you need heat and de icing.

That's like having a ICE car, and only being able to fill the tank 3/4 full. Not to mention if you do choose to 100% charge for maximum range, it takes much longer. Especially in the cold.

I just charge it to full, especially if I have stuff to do that day. Just because it’s suggested it doesn’t mean you can’t charge past 80%. I could see leaving it full for weeks at a time being an issue, but I have the LFP battery and it’s just not as sensitive as the cobalt batteries.

Some way overthink it and others just don’t plan ahead. It’s not difficult to deal with, some go over the top and just won’t do some things with their car because of the battery. I’m going to use it and if it goes wrong I’ll learn something from it. It’s not a religion. It’s a car with a battery in it.

 

[Thermo1223]

I've been reading the back and forth all morning. It is interesting to say the least.

That being said I would gladly accept an EV in my life if financials would let me. It is kind of a hard sell now with 2 working vehicles. I wanted a Ford Lightning but could not stomach the cost. My commute is ideal being mostly in town and I can charge it at work all day for free. I would love the V2H capability and even considered a F-150 Powerboost Hybrid as well but again cost is an issue. I would have to drive it though as I said previously my wife wants a light switch appliance and no thought need considered for anything other than "Why does it not go?". The same reason I am in charge of the generator when it comes to power outages. She wants nothing to do with it and would rather just sit in the dark.

We would always have a ICE backup though.

 

[y_p_w]

I've been reading the back and forth all morning. It is interesting to say the least.

That being said I would gladly accept an EV in my life if financials would let me. It is kind of a hard sell now with 2 working vehicles. I wanted a Ford Lightning but could not stomach the cost. My commute is ideal being mostly in town and I can charge it at work all day for free. I would love the V2H capability and even considered a F-150 Powerboost Hybrid as well but again cost is an issue. I would have to drive it though as I said previously my wife wants a light switch appliance and no thought need considered for anything other than "Why does it not go?". The same reason I am in charge of the generator when it comes to power outages. She wants nothing to do with it and would rather just sit in the dark.

We would always have a ICE backup though.

There's always a learning curve, as there will be with almost any new vehicle. I was worried with my dad, but he's going OK. As long as it's properly set up, charging at home is ridiculously easy. In fact that's the thing my dad really likes - that he doesn't have to go to gas stations any more. Other than pressing a button to open the charge port, it's like charging a cell phone.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Its just the opposite. Most EV buyers want to believe the best about their purchase regardless of its flaws and issues, because if they don't, it illustrates they made a mistake.

They will call their EV's great regardless.

That's your opinion; the data says otherwise. Teslas have very high customer satisfaction which leads to repeat customers. Some of the other brands, like the Leaf have not fared as well.

 

[gfh77665]

Not an opinion. RE the Leaf, you are speaking of a brand differences, not EV ownership. Up until this big freeze the vast majority of EV owners were "all in" all the time on EV ownership. Some were at cult level.

Reality is sinking in for some, now.

 

[Ws6]

Another thing is that it's generally accepted EV religion that you shouldn't charge past 80% for long battery life. That cuts into range even more. Especially in frigid weather when you need heat and de icing.

That's like having a ICE car, and only being able to fill the tank 3/4 full. Not to mention if you do choose to 100% charge for maximum range, it takes much longer. Especially in the cold.

Or like having an ICE car with a HPFP and not letting the tank get below 1/4...

 

[Ws6]

Not an opinion. There may have been some brand differences, but up until this big freeze the vast majority of EV owners were "all in" all the time on EV ownership. Some were at cult level.

Reality is sinking in for some, now.

No, it's just media nonsense. Do you actually think Tesla came out in 2024, or that no winter in the last decade was this cold? Orrr....

 

[Ws6]

Imagine the pump slowing down after it filled X amount of gallons. Haha.

EDIT: I'm not going to think about different tank sizes, how the pump would know, etc on a hypothetical. The thought just cracked me up.

I've used gas pumps that were literally slower than charging my EV.

 

[gfh77665]

No, it's just media nonsense. Do you actually think Tesla came out in 2024, or that no winter in the last decade was this cold? Orrr....

Please tell that to the stranded, frozen motorists.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/winter-weather-presenting-ev-owners-frustrating-challenges