I can no longer advocate for Synthetic.

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
BlueOvalFitter wrote: "What? RP is not the same as Valvoline SynPower?"

Compare RP to Synpower at PQIA. For the measurements that are made, they are fairly similar. My point was that elemental analysis does not lend itself to the conclusion that two oils are nearly identical. I agree that they are vary similar for in the parameters that were measured. Actually, RP seems to me to be as similar to Synpower as is NAPA when considering only the data at PQIA.

I know the difference; RP is purple?
Seriously, if RP were the same as Valvoline SynPower or NAPA Syn people buying RP are getting ripped off, very badly! Unless, they can say it being purple makes up the cost difference.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Seriously, if RP were the same as Valvoline SynPower or NAPA Syn people buying RP are getting ripped off, very badly! Unless, they can say it being purple makes up the cost difference.

Many of us for years have been saying the RP crowd has been getting ripped off, lol.

 

[KitaCam]

Originally Posted By: LFN
For those few like me on this forum who take their car somewhere to be serviced, the difference is significant.

I run conventional mobil 5000 for 5K and get it done at the dealer for 29.99 + tax(includes tire rotation and wash & vacuum), syn starts at 49.99(59.99 for mobil EP ).

Hard to get a good ROI with syn in my case.


Check your dealer for oil changes with BYO oil and filter...one dealer here charges $20 and I've read others charge only $10...so if you get the syn oil specials it is as cheap to have syn oil in your engine as it would be to have dino...

 

[LFN]

After viewing quite a few of used oil analysis & engine pics on the same make and model as mine on this site and others, I see basically zero benefit of using a syn at my current oil change interval based on my driving conditions and area operating conditions(mild winter, air filter was not close to needing a change till 25K, work off hours so no rush hour) etc.

I think it would be a waste for my application. I am kinda on board with the devil on this forum, ie DNewton.

 

[fdcg27]

If I were paying a price difference between synthetics and conventionals as great as what you portray, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
For that matter, Valvoline Nextgen was available FAR for most of last spring and summer, so there'd be no reason to use Valvoline conventional at the prices you quoted.
Anyway, the Synpower I've used for four changes in the Forester was under $2.00/qt after clearance pricing and MIR.
The Quaker State Torque Power I'm using in the '99 Accord was a little under $3.00/qt with BOGO pricing from AAP (yes, I've had this oil in the stash for some time).
When the '12 Accord gets its first change, it'll get either Pennzoil Platinum 0w20, at ~5.00 after MIR or Quaker State Ultimate Durability 0W-20 at ~$1.00 after MIR for five at jugs.
I've got three changes of FAR Ultra 5w30 for something, five of FAR Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 and I'm not sure how many of G-Oil.
I have four jugs of Quaker State Torque Power from Walmart which ran $9.00 on clearance.
I have a few jugs of PP which ran less than ten dollars each as well as maybe seven quarts which were on clearance for less than $2.00 each.
My point is that those who keep an eye on deals can be using syn for less than what the average buyer pays for store brand dino.
There has been no price premium for synthetics for me in the twenty two years I've used them.
There is therefore no reason to advocate for or against them.
Pure economics make them work for me, as well as anyone else who shops carefully.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Ducman
If you run synthetics longer, and given the price of dino now there is no way you can run dino cheaper anymore. It USED to be true - you could, when you got it for $1-$1.50 a quart, those days are long gone. If you have to do a short OCI due to warranty coverage issues then dino is cheaper of course - I am ignoring that. In summary I now run synthetic because it is cheaper, it protects at extreme usage better, I don't have to crawl under my truck nearly as often, I save time, the oil filters I already have will probably last until I sell/trade it now, in essence there are NO drawbacks, only benefits. What am I missing?


Agree 110% That just about sums it up.
One other thing is the potential to go with a slightly thinner oil for the same level of protection. Assuming of course that we are talking about real Synthetic oil.
Two benefits of being able to run a thinner oil are (1) Better economy, (2) Better/quicker protection at start up.
I'm also sold on Synthetic oil as a means to minimise waste oil through extended drain intervals.

Cheers


Please explain using a lesser grade and still providing the same protection as a higher grade of oil. This seems to be a outdated point to me.




I disagree that it's an "outdated point".
In Summary, this is because i believe that film strength is a crucial factor.
Also an oils ability to carry heat away effectively, and manage potential thermal runaway conditions before they become critical.

To elaborate there is evidence that even car manufacturers and OEM suppliers have in the past strictly specified that only synthetic oil is to be used in particular applications. It's also supported by specifications being raised by manufacturers to that effect.
I put it to you, that if it were not necessary they wouldn't go to the trouble and expence to validate their own in house durability testing, and impliment strategies to stop equipment failures in real world applications.
This is simply because in some cases conventional oils can't meet the demands put on them in "over-driven" designs of machinery.
Don't forget that modern engine designs are capable of higher power densities whilst also getting bigger in capacity and transmissions/differentials (or whatever) are having to cope with more power than ever before whilst getting physically smaller and with less oil capacity than ever before. Not to mention the "filled for life" farse.

Differentials and Transmissions are a prime example of over-driven machinery designs.

I'm not trying to be inflamatory, but I would suggest that your rhetoric potentially reflects flawed/outdated thinking for the following reason.

By using wording like "lesser grade" and "higher grade", in doing this it's discriminating against grades of oil based on how high or low a particular number is to label one as lesser or the other higher.

I can think of plenty of applications where the idea that a thicker oil, if deemed to be of a higher value over a thinner oil in a given application would land one in serious trouble with expensive repair bills. The inverse also applies.

To summarise, i suggest that one is not of lesser value than the other because it's thinner, or another is not higher in value because it's thicker.

It is more appropriate to aproach it from the perspective that one is simply thinner or thicker than the other.
From that perspective it's best thought of as simply what's fit for purpose in a given application.

Cheers

 

[KitaCam]

Well, maybe LFN isn't into rebates...I can understand that, and if so then a dino OC is just fine for him...LFN get the tires rotated for $10 over the local dino OC, I get free tire rotation coupons each year.

....for those who don't mind rebates, getting a 5qt jug of syn and filter for $5 is a no brainer...so for them and me, if the rebates actually come through, a $30 syn OC (+ free tire rotation) is the way to go...

 

[LFN]

Not sure it's a "no brainer" between a hydrocracked 'synthese technology' oil as the Germans call them, and oil sold as mineral oil yet sure looks like a blend in a VOA(PYB comes to mind).

Especially when most dump their oil within 3-5 thousand miles, as it seems in the used oil analysis section.

 

[KitaCam]

When I bought kitcamry the dealer had Pennzoil Conventional in it and it ran great, smooth as silk...at the 1st OC (3k later @ 100k miles) I replaced it with the same 5w30 but PP and the engine is running even quieter/smoother.

I have always had 5k OCIs and will continue to do so...when I can get a syn/filter OC for $5 after rebate I'll use PP (or whatever good syn is on sale)...if not, I'll just bring it to the dealer and let them put in Pennzoil Conventional/oem filter @ $20 for another 5k...no sweat.

 

[RamFan]

I guess everyone looked past my statement that money wasn't the reason for my decision.

Today's conventional oils provide the same amount of wear protection as synthetic when used according to manual specified intervals. If you use your vehicle in a way that isn't considered "typical" driving, then yes, you probably would benefit from synthetic oil. However, for your daily driver who changes his/her oil every 6 months or 6k miles (or any other manual spec), they will not see a performance increase because of synthetic.

Yes, you can get synthetic oil as cheap or cheaper than conventional...until you factor in that while synthetics have rebates/sales so do their conventional counterparts. So if you compare rebate/sale synthetic price to regular conventional, sure conventional might be more expensive. However, when you compare the synthetic sale/rebate price to the conventional sale/rebate price, the conventional is still cheaper.

If you extend your OCIs, yes you will get a ROI using synthetic, however, I am not talking about extending OCIs past manufacturer specs. If you follow the recommended intervals I do not believe that you will find a benefit using synthetics (outside of cold temp performance). When we start looking at trying to extend OCIs, track your vehicle, or increase the performance of your vehicle then what I've said goes out the window, under these conditions only used oil analysis will be able to tell you at which point a synthetic truly starts to act as a performance catalyst for your vehicle.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not saying that synthetic oils are useless lubricants and that conventional oils are superior, I don't even come close to believing that. I'm saying that synthetics have their place, for most drivers, that place is not in their crankcase.

 

[zerosoma]

I will agree with you that Conventional most times is indeed enough. But for certain applications such as winter driving I prefer a lower pour point and pourability with synthetic.

For that reason I personally use conventional 8 monhs out of the year and synthetic the other 4.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
I guess everyone looked past my statement that money wasn't the reason for my decision.

Today's conventional oils provide the same amount of wear protection as synthetic when used according to manual specified intervals. If you use your vehicle in a way that isn't considered "typical" driving, then yes, you probably would benefit from synthetic oil. However, for your daily driver who changes his/her oil every 6 months or 6k miles (or any other manual spec), they will not see a performance increase because of synthetic.

Yes, you can get synthetic oil as cheap or cheaper than conventional...until you factor in that while synthetics have rebates/sales so do their conventional counterparts. So if you compare rebate/sale synthetic price to regular conventional, sure conventional might be more expensive. However, when you compare the synthetic sale/rebate price to the conventional sale/rebate price, the conventional is still cheaper.

If you extend your OCIs, yes you will get a ROI using synthetic, however, I am not talking about extending OCIs past manufacturer specs. If you follow the recommended intervals I do not believe that you will find a benefit using synthetics (outside of cold temp performance). When we start looking at trying to extend OCIs, track your vehicle, or increase the performance of your vehicle then what I've said goes out the window, under these conditions only used oil analysis will be able to tell you at which point a synthetic truly starts to act as a performance catalyst for your vehicle.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not saying that synthetic oils are useless lubricants and that conventional oils are superior, I don't even come close to believing that. I'm saying that synthetics have their place, for most drivers, that place is not in their crankcase.


I agree with you. If a person follows the manufacturers recommendations and they aren't specifying a syn of some sort then using it and draining at 5000 miles is a waste however if you consider that most drivers aren't bitogers and many of them don't maintain their vehicles as we do. So most non OCD drivers will benefit from using a syn considering that most neglect their vehicles.
My sister and brothers for example. They seem to think that oil changes are only required when the oil light on the dash comes on(not the maintenance minder either). Heck my younger brother voided his warranty because he basically went double the required mileage on his oil,which I consider utter stupidity but it happens,and I'm sure he isn't the only consumer out there who is that absent minded.
Us as bitogers way overdo it,however I think it's because we believe our habits will extend the lives of our vehicles,which it just might. But it may not,and all those extra dollars spent just means there is a well maintained engine in that rotted out body at the auto wreckers.
Doesn't mean I'm going to change my maintenance habits though. It's also a hobby. And kinda fun. When I cost factor what my buddies spend in a weekend on booze my hobby is way less expensive than theirs.

 

[Avinash]

GM calls for Dexos1 (for gas engines), all synthetics and some semi synthetics are approved. That settles it for newer GM cars.

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
I guess everyone looked past my statement that money wasn't the reason for my decision.

Today's conventional oils provide the same amount of wear protection as synthetic when used according to manual specified intervals. If you use your vehicle in a way that isn't considered "typical" driving, then yes, you probably would benefit from synthetic oil. However, for your daily driver who changes his/her oil every 6 months or 6k miles (or any other manual spec), they will not see a performance increase because of synthetic.

Yes, you can get synthetic oil as cheap or cheaper than conventional...until you factor in that while synthetics have rebates/sales so do their conventional counterparts. So if you compare rebate/sale synthetic price to regular conventional, sure conventional might be more expensive. However, when you compare the synthetic sale/rebate price to the conventional sale/rebate price, the conventional is still cheaper.

If you extend your OCIs, yes you will get a ROI using synthetic, however, I am not talking about extending OCIs past manufacturer specs. If you follow the recommended intervals I do not believe that you will find a benefit using synthetics (outside of cold temp performance). When we start looking at trying to extend OCIs, track your vehicle, or increase the performance of your vehicle then what I've said goes out the window, under these conditions only used oil analysis will be able to tell you at which point a synthetic truly starts to act as a performance catalyst for your vehicle.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not saying that synthetic oils are useless lubricants and that conventional oils are superior, I don't even come close to believing that. I'm saying that synthetics have their place, for most drivers, that place is not in their crankcase.

 

[edweather]

Great thread although 90% of it is over my head. We have 2 trucks at about 100k miles, and running full synthetic from the beginning. Have been religious with 5k OCI's. Funny how old habit's are hard to break, but from all the reading it seems that extending the OCI to 7.5k won't hurt as long as I make sure the oil is topped off inbetween OC's. Been using Motorcraft filters on the Ford and Chevy filters on the Chevy.

 

[SteveSRT8]

wildly platform specific then you must consider the usage.

What works for your commute may not handle my duty cycle.

Just like DNewton sez: sample it or you're just guessing!

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: edweather
Have been religious with 5k OCI's. Funny how old habit's are hard to break, but from all the reading it seems that extending the OCI to 7.5k won't hurt as long as I make sure the oil is topped off inbetween OC's.


Most definitely go to 7.5K. Draining synthetic is a waste at 5K.

FWIW, I go 10K OCI's with my synthetics, once my vehicles are out of warranty.

 

[jrustles]

Late to the party, but I agree with the OP.
There are only two conditions, probably already mentioned, that would prompt me to opt for synthetic:
-when expecting extreme temperatures (Siberian Cold starts or roasting piston crowns on track day)
-when a drain interval must be extended for some reason

That's it. Otherwise, I'm happy with Pennzoil Conventional or Safety-Kleen recycled.

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: edweather
Great thread although 90% of it is over my head. We have 2 trucks at about 100k miles, and running full synthetic from the beginning. Have been religious with 5k OCI's. Funny how old habit's are hard to break, but from all the reading it seems that extending the OCI to 7.5k won't hurt as long as I make sure the oil is topped off inbetween OC's. Been using Motorcraft filters on the Ford and Chevy filters on the Chevy.
If it ain't brokeon't fix it. Continue what has worked for U for 100,000 miles.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
Today's conventional oils provide the same amount of wear protection as synthetic when used according to manual specified intervals. If you use your vehicle in a way that isn't considered "typical" driving, then yes, you probably would benefit from synthetic oil. However, for your daily driver who changes his/her oil every 6 months or 6k miles (or any other manual spec), they will not see a performance increase because of synthetic.

Bingo. Even ignoring cost, as you mention, one should still be shooting for benefits. Tig1 goes 10,000 miles. That's not typical usage for a conventional (or even a synthetic for most). He's said he'd never consider a short OCI for his M1, or M1 for a short OCI.

Certainly, there are plenty of specifications on paper where synthetic looks better. For the average motorist, that will never manifest into anything. Nonetheless, if the vehicle specifies synthetic, that's another animal altogether.