How will 2024 CAFE standards impact your buying?

[eljefino]

Yeah, how are we going to read mileage? Annually? That could be a few several hundred bucks, painful for many. I see people abandoning vehicles instead of renewing their tags, or just driving illegally. Then what happens when you buy a used car with money due on it, it would be like California's in-op fees. Onboard GPS telemetry? No thank you.

I somehow imagine them making all vehicles under 6000 lbs pay the "average" gas tax of a 25 MPG vehicle, times the mileage. Unfair to the welterweights. Some states are more punitive/ regressive than others, so you'll find people "state shopping" for a better deal. Then cops will be very suspicious of out-of-state plates. It's going to get ugly.

 

[edyvw]

This we agree on.

From a maintenance stanpoint, passenger cars create almost zero wear - compared to trucks.

Passenger cars do cause congestion, requiring bigger roads - so there is that. But passenger car traffic creates economic activity in a region - which benefits everyone locally - so maybe everyone should pay not just drivers.

Then there are the privacy issues.

Supremes best set aside a couple months to hear this one.

With number of personal vehicles, they do create wear and tear. Personal vehicles pack now good weight. They definitely create damage, especially here in areas with rapidly changing weather, constant freeze and melting.
If OBD devices are way to go, that will definitely be supreme court drama. Another way is self reporting mileage. The question comes to using roads in other states. Tolls?

 

[supton]

Extra cost and complexity for marginal benefit. I do almost no driving where the hybrid system would help. I would be paying extra for a battery and electric motors that would rarely be activated.

How do you figure? ours is constantly doing engine start/stop, and the fancy battery display is always sloshing energy around.

 

[edyvw]

Extra cost and complexity for marginal benefit. I do almost no driving where the hybrid system would help. I would be paying extra for a battery and electric motors that would rarely be activated.

I suppose it’s possible that a plug-in hybrid might be OK, but again I’m paying for extra complexity that gives me very little real world benefit.

What kind of driving you do?

 

[Elkins45]

What kind of driving you do?

Relatively constant-speed driving with little braking on rural roads to get to the interstate where I drive 70 mph for long periods of time. Maybe 5% city driving where hybrids offer a noticeable advantage.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I go back and forth on the hybrid thing. Most of my driving is not in traffic, and highway mileage for comparable hybrids isn't a huge improvement over ICE. For example my ICE Rav4 gets close to 35MPG highway if I keep it around 75. Rav4 Hybrid gets about 40 ish - and at 75 it might be a little less.

Now in city driving, there much better.

They are definitely more complex, although Toyota especially seems to have the model figured out pretty well.

 

[Bill7]

It wont... I have a 21 Honda HRV... If I have the same luck like my 07 Accord that I traded in for this in 21 with 386000...I will not need a new car for awhile...

I am going to keep my four 2006/2007 Honda Odysseys for another 12 years.
I like my high tension piston rings and 5W-30 and VTEC.

Imagine the new cars trying to meet the new CAFE will have 0W-4 or even 0W-2. The low tension piston rings will lose even more tension. Engine longevity will likely decrease.

 

[Bill7]

It is more but in those ranges - almost negligible, That 1950's theory was proven false long ago. A 20,000 ton axle on a semi does 300 times the damage as a passenger car. But when you get down to car / F350 level - your literally at 10% of the road design limit hence the difference in wear is neglibible - although possibly measureable over a long period of time.

Its like asking how much faster will your rear springs wear out if you keep a jack in the trunk vs not. The answer is some amount, but not enough to matter. However if your trunk is loaded to design capacity, the answer is pretty fast.

PSI in the tires also comes into play - direct PSI onto the asphalt surface itself vs design. But again, anything passenger pressure is nelgibeable.

"Short run marginal road costs from autos and other light vehicles are directly related to miles driven and, despite increasing variance in vehicle weights (and fuel efficiency), there is not much difference in the damage done to the road by different types of light vehicles (whereas there is a big difference in damage to the road done by heavy trucks of different weight groups and with different axle configurations). Indeed, Merriss (2004) notes that the “difference in pavement damage imposed by a 6,000-pound large SUV versus a 3,500-pound compact car is inconsequential as compared to the difference in (pavement) damage imposed by either of these vehicles versus a fully-loaded 80,000-pound truck” (p.2)."

Source:

Chicago's SUV Tax and Road Damage: Do the Numbers Add Up?

The Mayor's proposed SUV tax—which would actually encompass heavier sedans—is predicated on the idea that heavier cars cause more damage to roads. But is that actually true?

www.chicagomag.com

https://www.trucking.org/sites/default/files/2022-01/Analysis%20of%20car%20and%20truck%20pavement%20impacts-FINAL.pdf

Buses are more likely to damage the roads.
Let the City tax itself LOL.

 

[edyvw]

Relatively constant-speed driving with little braking on rural roads to get to the interstate where I drive 70 mph for long periods of time. Maybe 5% city driving where hybrids offer a noticeable advantage.

Ok. Sure. The thing is, owning a car is not a right. Companies are adjusting to demand and hybrids are selling like hot cakes.
PHEV is hot commodity. IMO it is mid term solution.

 

[supton]

I go back and forth on the hybrid thing. Most of my driving is not in traffic, and highway mileage for comparable hybrids isn't a huge improvement over ICE. For example my ICE Rav4 gets close to 35MPG highway if I keep it around 75. Rav4 Hybrid gets about 40 ish - and at 75 it might be a little less.

Going from 35 to 40 is still a good 10% bump. forget what the upfront price increase is though, that would determine ROI.

I do wonder if hybrid would do so-so on flat ground, better in rolling hills and worse on long climbs. Sloshing energy around has its losses. But no road or trip ever seems to be one constant load on the engine. That is where hybrid shines, capturing energy that would otherwise be lost altogether and using it later. Charging while coasting, returning when load picks up again.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Going from 35 to 40 is still a good 10% bump. forget what the upfront price increase is though, that would determine ROI.

I do wonder if hybrid would do so-so on flat ground, better in rolling hills and worse on long climbs. Sloshing energy around has its losses. But no road or trip ever seems to be one constant load on the engine. That is where hybrid shines, capturing energy that would otherwise be lost altogether and using it later. Charging while coasting, returning when load picks up again.

Electric motors are rediculously efficient at producing torque - which is why hybrids are so good at stop and go.

Once at speed - they still require a reasonable amount of electricity to maintain that speed - which is why there not that much better than ice on the highway. On hills - not sure.

The MSRP between my Rav4 and the hybrid wasn't that much, but in 2019 when I bought ICE was $5500 off MSRP, and the hybrid was MSRP or maybe a little off - so it ended up it would have been like $8000 difference for the same car, so not worth it.

In hindsight, it was the right choice because the hybrid ended up having a few more issues than the ICE - but none of them were showstoppers - for example the Hybrid had a corrosion issue with the rear differential motor connector, and they had issues with the gas tank - couldn't fill it more than 3/4 full - which upset a lot of people. I think the gas tank has been fixed. The connector issue I am not sure about.

 

[DuckRyder]

Extra cost and complexity for marginal benefit. I do almost no driving where the hybrid system would help. I would be paying extra for a battery and electric motors that would rarely be activated.

I suppose it’s possible that a plug-in hybrid might be OK, but again I’m paying for extra complexity that gives me very little real world benefit.

You might lose complexity from the standpoint of turbos etc. I you take the escape as an example you have 3 power options 2 turbos and a hybrid. The hybrid is a 2.5 Duratech.

Mine gets like 42 on the highway. I doubt that either of the turbo motors would come close.

Not that I'm against the turbo motors, the Jetta gets similar mileage buts it is a bit smaller and I suspect more aerodynamic.

 

[supton]

Once at speed - they still require a reasonable amount of electricity to maintain that speed - which is why there not that much better than ice on the highway. On hills - not sure.

At any given speed and incline, the amount of power required is fixed, so ICE or electric, you're stuck. And I believe electric motors tend to be rather flat in their conversion efficiency over their RPM range, but have never looked (but I know ICE isn't).

Where it gets dicey is how the Toyota system works. It has one electric motor fixed to the drive wheels--if the wheels are turning, so is it. Then there is an electric motor and a power divider that sums the second motor and the ICE together. In order to set engine speed, it's a combination of both electric motors either pulling power from the battery or delivering power--and you can get into a point where one motor is generating electricity to power the other, in order to have the ICE at its optimal RPM (MG1+MG2+ICE rpm's -> vehicle speed). Here's the rub: every conversion of power loses a bit. So on a long climb, technically ICE through a geared transmission should be more efficient than this hybrid drive. Assuming you can find the optimal gear ratio that is.

Now does these double conversion loss get won over by ICE always being at its optimal rpm? Short of a true CVT there is always some jump between gears (and since most automatics have a torque convertor and some sort of pump to make hydraulic pressure to run the transmission, some level of loss). Beats me, but it sure seems to shine elsewhere, where loading is never constant.

 

[PimTac]

Warren Buffett, who famously loves McDonald's, is willing to give up a year of his life to eat whatever he wants

Warren Buffett has compared his diet to that of a 6-year-old. He's famously said he drinks 5 cans of Coke a day and gets McDonald's every morning.

news.yahoo.com

I thought The Buffett was a Dairy Queen guy? He does own it.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

We ae in infancy of tax per mile.
It will happen, there is no doubt about it.
But, how will that be executed is SERIOUS issue. That will be Supreme Court drama par excellance.

I would think automated or GPS based system would just be too expensive to implement and subject to tampering.

 

[TiGeo]

 

[Elkins45]

Since this thread has sort of morphed into a discussion of hybrids and EVs, how come something like a diesel electric system like locomotives and cruise ships hasn’t been tried? 100% electric propulsion powered by an onboard diesel generator. There has to be some advantage to a system like this or it wouldn’t be so common.

 

[TiGeo]

Since this thread has sort of morphed into a discussion of hybrids and EVs, how come something like a diesel electric system like locomotives and cruise ships hasn’t been tried? 100% electric propulsion powered by an onboard diesel generator. There has to be some advantage to a system like this or it wouldn’t be so common.

I'd say the issue is in the end diesel is a pretty dirty tech and to make it clean is a huge hassle/expense.

I too think hybrids are the middle gorund that makes the most sense. I don't think EV is the overall answer due to the immense (more than most folks really understand) natural resource pull but they have a place. Something renewable/massive tech leap will be necessary to replace ICE.

 

[hemioiler]

I am assuming you have electricity since you wrote this post on a electronic device. The new RAM has up to 500 miles of range. The technology will filter down to other vehicles. Is 500 miles not enough? How far out of the city do you live?

The above comments are not meant to be "snarky". But rather have you (and everybody else) think about the big picture-instead of just saying-"I live out here" or "this will not work because".....

Don't know how old you are-but on the highway 500 miles is more than my bladder will do.....

I don't have a problem with an electric commuter car for those who can plug in at home (but many in apartments or the city won't have access to a plug to charge overnight).

However when it comes to trucks; EV does not work there. Many people use their trucks to tow, and you get like 50 to 100 miles of range before you're out of power. So you stop at some charger somewhere and now have to unhook your trailer so you're not blocking everybody else and wait for 1hour+ to "fill up". Heaven help you when there is a line up during summer season.

 

[edyvw]

Since this thread has sort of morphed into a discussion of hybrids and EVs, how come something like a diesel electric system like locomotives and cruise ships hasn’t been tried? 100% electric propulsion powered by an onboard diesel generator. There has to be some advantage to a system like this or it wouldn’t be so common.

In Europe you have diesels with small hybrid systems.