Motorcraft 5W-20 in the RR Ghost, Lincoln Navigator and Bentley Flying Spur Speed W12s.
Ali
Ali
How to Determine the Correct Oil Grade for your Car
- Thread starter AEHaas
- Start date
Good luck with that.
Why not 5W-20 in the Ferrari anymore?
Let me try the 0W-30 RLI then we can discuss testing a 0W-20 if the 30 grade oil numbers look good. Again, the specified 40 grade oil tested out to be a 30 grade oil due to fuel dilution. I have found that RLI motor oils handle fuel dilution better than other brands. The numbers looked good for that 40 grade OEM Pakelo motor oil. It is likely a 20 grade RLI oil will be fine with the temperatures I am seeing.
We just came home from dinner and my wife drove (the 812 SF). She always steps on it right off the cuff. No regard to oil temperature. Do you see what I have to put up with ??? I drive more conservative in this regard. My wife, not so much.
Ali
Viscosity decrease from fuel dilution should only depend on the % fuel in the oil, and the starting viscosity of the oil (zero fuel dilution). I don't see how the actual formulation of a motor oil has any effect on what the fuel dilution does to the resulting viscosity.
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I had fuel dilution issues with the original Renewable Lubricants 0W-30 formulation. I discussed this with the formulator, Bill G. He did a revision "to better handle fuel dilution". You will notice from this old post below that the original formulation had 1.3 % fuel dilution and the viscosity dropped to a 20 grade level. The tweaked formula had 1.5% fuel dilution yet stayed in grade:
Ferrari recommends oil based on the car being on a race track. A 20 grade oil running around town is thicker than a 40 grade oil running at wide open throttle on the track using all 800 HP. As oil takes around 20 minutes to warm up to the operating temperature while driving around town it is almost always thick as honey. Most trips are for me less than 30 minutes long. Hence the oil is even thicker yet.
I have demonstrated that these Ferrari engines have less wear running lower grade oils around town than the specified oils. Yes the results are of a small sample but they all show the same tendency. Oils less honey like will allow for more power, more fuel economy, less start up wear, running at higher RPM sooner, et cetera. My current 812 Superfast has sump temperatures of 165 - 175 F as I drive around town. What am I using at most - 100 HP? 200 HP? Certainly a 20 grade oil around town is way more viscous than a 40 grade oil while racing at the Sebring track using all 800 HP for 30 minutes.
Here is some data from older posts:
It may be worth revisiting this old UOA (used oil analysis) comparison. I am giving evidence that thinner oils can be used when otherwise very heavy grades may be specified. And that thinner oils may result in much less wear than when the “recommended” oil, in the “manual” is used.
Several things to note. We are neighbors, drove the same car (but for the milage), drove the same way in the same environment. His car had what can be considered normal wear. Yet mine had a significantly reduced wear pattern. Also, the original RLI that dropped to a 20 grade oil had more wear than the newer “Enzo” formulation. But it was still less than the 60 grade Shell oil. Maybe the sweat spot for this car was a 30 grade oil for driving in our environment.
Compared Enzo Ferrari UOA from years ago: This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 4,400 miles on the right column (middle 2 columns, earlier UOA of my car). Both cars had about 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC in the second column, the original formula of RLI in the 3rd column and the “new and improved “ RLI “Dr. Haas” Enzo formula in the last column.
Tested my Enzo oils by Terry Dyson. His testing counts larger particles as well as all the smaller ones so other labs may give false lower values. At no time has the oil temperature in this engine gotten above 180 F. This latest oil has been in for nearly two years but Terry Dyson said I should just keep going (and going and going). What is particularly interesting is that the original RLI formulation dropped to a 20 grade, the newer formulation did not.
Part of the original post: I believe this formulation has been perfected and am considering it’s use in all my cars. I am not sure my wife will allow such a thick oil in her Murcielago however.
OILS: ….....Shell.... GC….RLI….RLI - “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula”
Iron___________ 32...11...7...3 (Fe in RLI VOA =2)
Chromium ____ Nickel _________2...1....0...0
Aluminum _____11...3....2...0
lead _________ 16...0....3...1
Copper _______25...8....4...3
Tin __________ Silver ________ Titanium _____ Silicon ________ 7...3....4...2
Boron ________ 1...3...16..17
Sodium _______ 8...3....10...8
Potassium ____ Molybdenum _ Phosphorus ___1026...935…1032…698
Zinc _________ 1135...1228…1055...988
Calcium ______ 1454…167...2108…1898
Barium ______ Magnesium __1219...526…53...19
Antimony ____ Vanadium ____ Fuel %Vol ____ Flash_______not done..335..320..300
Abs Oxid _____ 34...10..127...95
Abs Nitr ______ 11....8....8....7
Wtr %vol ____ Vis CS 100C __ 15.8....11.8….8.6….9.8
Vic CS 40C___not done…66….44….48
SAE Grade _____40....30....20....30
Gly test ______NEG…..0.37 “not antifreeze”…...0…..0
TBN _________not done...7.9....5.9...6.4
TAN _________not done...1.7....1.4...1.3
Visc Inde x___ not done…154...177...192
Soot_________not done...0....0.01....0
Note that the Enzo engine that specifies a 60 grade oil had very little wear while running a 20 grade oil. But again, no use of all 650 HP. It’s just not possible driving in normal conditions. While running at 8,000 RPM and using all 650 HP may require a 60 grade oil, driving around town does not. I believe based on my own experiments that these cars are better off with oil grades more appropriate for urban driving as that is all I do these days. Though tempting and offered I have not raced for quite some time. Actually the last time I was on the track it was testing the soon to be released Maybach 57 and 62. Several professional racing drivers and I gave feedback to engineers from Stuttgart. ‘Quite a thrill. Several of my suggestions were done to the car. I eventually bought the original version then later the AMG version. Again, with some added Dr. Haas modifications.
Even Lamborghini tried to get my wife and her car on the track to no avail. It was enough for her to sip some wine with Valentino Balboni in our own garage:
Ali
Ferrari recommends oil based on the car being on a race track. A 20 grade oil running around town is thicker than a 40 grade oil running at wide open throttle on the track using all 800 HP. As oil takes around 20 minutes to warm up to the operating temperature while driving around town it is almost always thick as honey. Most trips are for me less than 30 minutes long. Hence the oil is even thicker yet.
I have demonstrated that these Ferrari engines have less wear running lower grade oils around town than the specified oils. Yes the results are of a small sample but they all show the same tendency. Oils less honey like will allow for more power, more fuel economy, less start up wear, running at higher RPM sooner, et cetera. My current 812 Superfast has sump temperatures of 165 - 175 F as I drive around town. What am I using at most - 100 HP? 200 HP? Certainly a 20 grade oil around town is way more viscous than a 40 grade oil while racing at the Sebring track using all 800 HP for 30 minutes.
Here is some data from older posts:
It may be worth revisiting this old UOA (used oil analysis) comparison. I am giving evidence that thinner oils can be used when otherwise very heavy grades may be specified. And that thinner oils may result in much less wear than when the “recommended” oil, in the “manual” is used.
Several things to note. We are neighbors, drove the same car (but for the milage), drove the same way in the same environment. His car had what can be considered normal wear. Yet mine had a significantly reduced wear pattern. Also, the original RLI that dropped to a 20 grade oil had more wear than the newer “Enzo” formulation. But it was still less than the 60 grade Shell oil. Maybe the sweat spot for this car was a 30 grade oil for driving in our environment.
Compared Enzo Ferrari UOA from years ago: This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 4,400 miles on the right column (middle 2 columns, earlier UOA of my car). Both cars had about 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC in the second column, the original formula of RLI in the 3rd column and the “new and improved “ RLI “Dr. Haas” Enzo formula in the last column.
Tested my Enzo oils by Terry Dyson. His testing counts larger particles as well as all the smaller ones so other labs may give false lower values. At no time has the oil temperature in this engine gotten above 180 F. This latest oil has been in for nearly two years but Terry Dyson said I should just keep going (and going and going). What is particularly interesting is that the original RLI formulation dropped to a 20 grade, the newer formulation did not.
Part of the original post: I believe this formulation has been perfected and am considering it’s use in all my cars. I am not sure my wife will allow such a thick oil in her Murcielago however.
OILS: ….....Shell.... GC….RLI….RLI - “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula”
Iron___________ 32...11...7...3 (Fe in RLI VOA =2)
Chromium ____ Nickel _________2...1....0...0
Aluminum _____11...3....2...0
lead _________ 16...0....3...1
Copper _______25...8....4...3
Tin __________ Silver ________ Titanium _____ Silicon ________ 7...3....4...2
Boron ________ 1...3...16..17
Sodium _______ 8...3....10...8
Potassium ____ Molybdenum _ Phosphorus ___1026...935…1032…698
Zinc _________ 1135...1228…1055...988
Calcium ______ 1454…167...2108…1898
Barium ______ Magnesium __1219...526…53...19
Antimony ____ Vanadium ____ Fuel %Vol ____ Flash_______not done..335..320..300
Abs Oxid _____ 34...10..127...95
Abs Nitr ______ 11....8....8....7
Wtr %vol ____ Vis CS 100C __ 15.8....11.8….8.6….9.8
Vic CS 40C___not done…66….44….48
SAE Grade _____40....30....20....30
Gly test ______NEG…..0.37 “not antifreeze”…...0…..0
TBN _________not done...7.9....5.9...6.4
TAN _________not done...1.7....1.4...1.3
Visc Inde x___ not done…154...177...192
Soot_________not done...0....0.01....0
Note that the Enzo engine that specifies a 60 grade oil had very little wear while running a 20 grade oil. But again, no use of all 650 HP. It’s just not possible driving in normal conditions. While running at 8,000 RPM and using all 650 HP may require a 60 grade oil, driving around town does not. I believe based on my own experiments that these cars are better off with oil grades more appropriate for urban driving as that is all I do these days. Though tempting and offered I have not raced for quite some time. Actually the last time I was on the track it was testing the soon to be released Maybach 57 and 62. Several professional racing drivers and I gave feedback to engineers from Stuttgart. ‘Quite a thrill. Several of my suggestions were done to the car. I eventually bought the original version then later the AMG version. Again, with some added Dr. Haas modifications.
Even Lamborghini tried to get my wife and her car on the track to no avail. It was enough for her to sip some wine with Valentino Balboni in our own garage:
Ali
"I don't see how the actual formulation of a motor oil has any effect on what the fuel dilution does to the resulting viscosity."
If you think about it, 1% fuel dilution should have a minimal effect by the simple action of dilution. However, the effect of the fuel on maybe the viscosity index improver is the mechanism. Or maybe the effects on the type of base oil used or something else. But clearly you are right, the effects of simple dilution is not the answer.
Looking at the Enzo data running the 60 grade OEM oil the viscosity dropped to a 40 grade oil with less than 1% fuel dilution. The milage on all the above oils is very low so one wonders. A stable 40 grade oil would certainly have been just as good as the shear unstable 60 grade oil that Ferrari recommends. People in this forum would cringe if a 40 grade oil was used when a 60 was specified yet the oil became a 40 grade almost immediately.
The Ferrari recommended 40 grade oil in my 812 SF became a 30 grade, again with just 1,000 miles. So clearly a more stable 30 grade oil would be just as good, maybe better. People are tracking their cars with this reduced grade. If they can run on the track with a 30 grade oil perhaps a 20 grade would be fine around town?
Ali
If you think about it, 1% fuel dilution should have a minimal effect by the simple action of dilution. However, the effect of the fuel on maybe the viscosity index improver is the mechanism. Or maybe the effects on the type of base oil used or something else. But clearly you are right, the effects of simple dilution is not the answer.
Looking at the Enzo data running the 60 grade OEM oil the viscosity dropped to a 40 grade oil with less than 1% fuel dilution. The milage on all the above oils is very low so one wonders. A stable 40 grade oil would certainly have been just as good as the shear unstable 60 grade oil that Ferrari recommends. People in this forum would cringe if a 40 grade oil was used when a 60 was specified yet the oil became a 40 grade almost immediately.
The Ferrari recommended 40 grade oil in my 812 SF became a 30 grade, again with just 1,000 miles. So clearly a more stable 30 grade oil would be just as good, maybe better. People are tracking their cars with this reduced grade. If they can run on the track with a 30 grade oil perhaps a 20 grade would be fine around town?
Ali
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There's 3 main factors that determine the ideal oil viscosity....
1) Operating oil temperature
2) Rod and main bearing clearances
3) The load on those bearings
Things like lifter bleed and ring tension/seal have smaller effects and are ideally built around the viscosity dictated by the bearings.
1) Operating oil temperature
2) Rod and main bearing clearances
3) The load on those bearings
Things like lifter bleed and ring tension/seal have smaller effects and are ideally built around the viscosity dictated by the bearings.
What place did the UOA for you? If it was Blackstone, then the fuel dilution number probably isn't accurate. @OVERKILL and I had this discussion not long ago.
If it dropped from 60 to 40 with only 1% fuel dilution, then it was either a very thin 60 and/or it sheared horribly from mechanical shear. Or the fuel dilution measurement wasn't very accurate and was much higher than 1%.
What's the KV100 of this OEM 60 oil? Let's say it was 25 cSt (top of a 50 is 22 cSt). If there was only 1% fuel dilution (without any mechanical shearing), then the resulting viscosity would be KV100 of ~23.9 cSt, which would keep it in the lower end of a 60 grade. It would take ~10% fuel dilution to make a 60 KV100 of 25 cSt to go to a high 40 @ 16 cSt.
I really don't think the oil formulation is going to change the basic relationship between fuel dilution % and the resulting viscosity. If the formulation does, then I'd like to see the technical paper(s) showing that relationship.
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The main reason you have probably more than 1% fuel dilution with low miles on the oil.
Yet, many OMs (outside the CAFE driven USA) show that basically the whole range of oil viscosity can be used based on ambient temperature use of the vehicle.
“What place did the UOA for you?”
I have always used Terry Dyson (Dyson Analysis), but he is retired now. He still does my testing though, not sure if he would take new people any more. I think he tests for fuel dilution by gas chromatography.
“What's the KV100 of this OEM 60 oil?”
The last I saw the Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 it was 22.9 at 100C, 151 at 40C. Way too thick for early morning revving on the way to work, even here in south Florida. ‘Average temp in the summer is probably 25C when I head to the office. Compare to the 0W-30 RLI with a viscosity of 58 at 40C.
I think that the fuel dilution is having an affect on the VII, interacting with it and diminishing its function. ‘Just a guess though.
ali
I have always used Terry Dyson (Dyson Analysis), but he is retired now. He still does my testing though, not sure if he would take new people any more. I think he tests for fuel dilution by gas chromatography.
“What's the KV100 of this OEM 60 oil?”
The last I saw the Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 it was 22.9 at 100C, 151 at 40C. Way too thick for early morning revving on the way to work, even here in south Florida. ‘Average temp in the summer is probably 25C when I head to the office. Compare to the 0W-30 RLI with a viscosity of 58 at 40C.
I think that the fuel dilution is having an affect on the VII, interacting with it and diminishing its function. ‘Just a guess though.
ali
That's just a hair above the top end of a 50 weight KV100.
Even quicker on the oil cap under the hood of your car!
PimTac I guess that makes you the winner of this thread!Mine just says OIL.
I love how people are over thinking this and know more than the company that built the car....
Why should I (or someone else) determine anything?
The manufacturer did all the work for me and you and anyone else.
Source?
Why do you 'like' that?
.
I appreciate every view and your view is one I respect here AEHaas. Wish I had a real oil pressure gauge and a real oil temperature gauge on my Miata. Cause I would really like to know. The Miata guys on another forum has this 0w-20 or 5w-30 debate for a long time. Miata OEM says 0w-20 (in North America)
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