How much gas can modern oils take?

[ford46guy]

I asked a question in small engines about some gas getting into oil because of a stuck float. New cars with DI send gas into oil.

How much though is too much? We all know gas is a terrible lubricant. Lets say 1oz of gas in a qt of oil.

 

[wpod]

As the oil becomes diluted it loses its ability to keep the parts separated and the rest of the things a properly formulated engine oil does. Oils don't take gas well at all.

 

[TomYoung]

If you have an ounce in a quart, that is far too much. The float should be replaced or fixed and the oil should be replaced. The fuel dilution question related to modern DI engines is related to much smaller concentrations or fuel. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 percent by volume after, say, 7,000 miles. Based on what I have seen on BITOG, people are driving DI cars, getting more than 1 percent fuel dilution in 7,000 miles and doing okay. In fact, it's nearly impossible to find an engine that has failed due to fuel dilution. On a small engine, though, you are talking about a situation that is serious, but easily addressed.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Dave Ward of @High Performance Lubricants has said they consider >5% fuel a condemnation point for in-service UOAs.

So that’s ~1.5 ounces per quart, or almost 1/4 quart in a 5 ounce sump.

 

[ATex7239]

https://www.oaitesting.com/images/docs/FuelDilution.pdf

 

[burbguy82]

New cars with DI send gas into oil.

Oh no! DI engines and their design has nothing to do with fuel dilution, says another poster on this site. Dont bother with an oil analysis either as they are useless.

So that’s ~1.5 ounces per quart, or almost 1/4 quart in a 5 ounce sump.

you might want to change this before those who dont have common sense start the attack



I think anything beyond 2% is bad, due to past research on the subject, but I am not an expert. What I do know, is there seems to be a grading curve recently, due to the fact of DI engines fuel contamination. Magically, fuel dilution is ok at a higher rate, I dont buy it.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I think anything beyond 2% is bad, due to past research on the subject, but I am not an expert. What I do know, is there seems to be a grading curve recently, due to the fact of DI engines fuel contamination. Magically, fuel dilution is ok at a higher rate, I dont buy it.

You may have misinterpreted the comment. Not saying between 2-5% is “good”, just that there’s not really any indication that in that range there’s any significant wear penalties. I believe the 5% dilution is more viscosity-related than other concerns. IIRC, I “think” David told me that testing (I believe from SWRI) that wear didn’t really increase statistically until 10% fuel was exceeded.

I do agree that in the 2-5% if one is interested in keeping the vehicle for 150k+ that they should check out the fuel system and evaluate their driving habits to help minimize fuel % in the oil. But I’m also confident that trusting HPL’s condemnation point will keep an engine safe.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I asked a question in small engines about some gas getting into oil because of a stuck float. New cars with DI send gas into oil.

How much though is too much? We all know gas is a terrible lubricant. Lets say 1oz of gas in a qt of oil.

No oil can really "handle fuel" because it's a simple problem of mixing fluids of different viscosities. From what I've been able to gather is that labs generally don't start red flagging fuel dilution until it gets around 5%.

 

[StumblingElk]

It doesn't take much gas in the oil to advance wear. No idea where to pull data on hard numbers, though.

I would also have to imagine that there would be several variables: oil formulation, bearing material, etc.

Honda, and others, have had issues with fuel dilution in recent years in their cars which lead to premature bearing wear/failure.

 

[tnt_motorsports]

I asked a question in small engines about some gas getting into oil because of a stuck float. New cars with DI send gas into oil.

How much though is too much? We all know gas is a terrible lubricant. Lets say 1oz of gas in a qt of oil.

1oz in a quart of oil is over 3% fuel dilution. I’d be changing it out with that much.

FWIW I’ve seen UOAs on diesel engines get flagged with this much fuel dilution and diesel is a way better lubricant than gasoline.

Just my $0.02

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

...
Honda, and others, have had issues with fuel dilution in recent years in their cars which lead to premature bearing wear/failure.

Can someone provide more info on this, say, with Honda's 1.5T engine? Meaning, are Honda's with this specific engine known to be low durability engines? The Civic Sport, with this engine and a 6MT, would otherwise be a pretty attractive car to buy, maybe...

 

[StumblingElk]

Can someone provide more info on this, say, with Honda's 1.5T engine? Meaning, are Honda's with this specific engine known to be low durability engines?

There was/is a class action regarding this. The Honda forums have been talking about this issue consistently.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.classaction.org/news/class-action-alleges-honda-hid-engine-oil-dilution-defect-in-newer-cr-v-civic-accord-models&ved=2ahUKEwjW4ZPsqPSFAxXIrokEHSDRDHIQudELegQICBAH&usg=AOvVaw20G9j_LvzDBMrOVefJw3WH

Honda Oil Dilution Lawsuit 2022-2024: Does Your Honda Have a Problem? - The Lemon Law Experts

looking for more information about the Honda oil dilution lawsuit? Learn more with the Lemon Law Experts today.

lemonlawexperts.com

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Can someone provide more info on this, say, with Honda's 1.5T engine? Meaning, are Honda's with this specific engine known to be low durability engines?

The issue is more that these Hondas that have had issues have shown WAY over 5% dilution, and since “most” Honda owners go by OLM/MM, they hit the 5%+ mark at say 1000 miles and then drive another 5k+ with that much fuel in the oil. That’s why severe service Maint schedules cut the OCI in half, because the mileage & hours run have a higher impact than highway driving.

 

[Danh]

There was/is a class action regarding this. The Honda forums have been talking about this issue consistently.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.classaction.org/news/class-action-alleges-honda-hid-engine-oil-dilution-defect-in-newer-cr-v-civic-accord-models&ved=2ahUKEwjW4ZPsqPSFAxXIrokEHSDRDHIQudELegQICBAH&usg=AOvVaw20G9j_LvzDBMrOVefJw3WH

Honda Oil Dilution Lawsuit 2022-2024: Does Your Honda Have a Problem? - The Lemon Law Experts

looking for more information about the Honda oil dilution lawsuit? Learn more with the Lemon Law Experts today.

lemonlawexperts.com

On Honda forums there is a lot of discussion but reports of premature engine failure are almost impossible to find. Presence of a class-action lawsuit proves nothing other than law firms trying to make a buck.

 

[picklyrickly1073]

It seems like regardless of how much fuel is in an oil, the UOA doesn’t show wear metals to be elevated to a point of concern. Sure it’s not good in theory but appears to be benign, unlike what some people here preach.

That said I still decided to bump to a 5w-30 to alleviate any POTENTIAL issues

 

[kschachn]

There are issues with fuel dilution beyond wear. Fuel dilution is not benign and a $30 spectrographic analysis isn’t the tool to gauge that. HPL has discussed it on here as well.

An overview:

Fuel Dilution - The Cause, Effect, and Detection - Savant Labs

Fuel Dilution is the thinning of engine oil by gasoline or diesel fuel. During the service life of the engine oil, some amount of fuel dilution is inevitable,

www.savantlab.com

 

[Whimsey]

This past year I participated in a Pennzoil oil comparison test, PUP 5W-30 vs M1 ESP 5W-30. The vehicle is a 2017 Ford Explorer 2.3 EB. So it's DI and Turbo. I've attached the UOA, you draw your own conclusions.

 

[burbguy82]

I believe the 5% dilution is more viscosity-related than other concerns

I agree 100%, it has to change the viscosity, which in the long run is bad.

You may have misinterpreted the comment

Oh no, it was not directed toward you, but another commenter. One who has said in the past that there is no corelation with DI engines and their fuel contamination issues.

I’m also confident that trusting HPL’s condemnation point will keep an engine safe.

I would be to, they are a top tier manufacturer.

 

[kschachn]

Oh no, it was not directed toward you, but another commenter. One who has said in the past that there is no corelation with DI engines and their fuel contamination issues.

Can you link that post?

 

[burbguy82]

Can you link that post?

No probably not, not that good with computers, or looking up countless threads from an archive. Did you think I was talking about you?