Not to try to steer the thread off topic, but I've started to wonder if those aren't the primany reasons for the "high iron" we see in some of the M1 reports. I noted with one vehicle of mine that the iron looked somewhat high after using M1 for few miles but the car had spent most of the OCI sitting...
How Mobil Tested Mobil 1 EP
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shouldn't it also last 5x as long as something that retails for $1?
i like to go excessive and change my M1 at 5k miles.
Surprised this is still debated: too many UOAs showing the Amsoil's (now) old formulae thickening a grade, relative to Mobil's PAOs, which tended to thin out a grade.
Also, didn't someone post awhile back that Amsoil buys their base stock from....ExxonMobil!?? My memory entering early dementia, so can anyone confirm/deny that?
Also, didn't someone post awhile back that Amsoil buys their base stock from....ExxonMobil!?? My memory entering early dementia, so can anyone confirm/deny that?
Yes they most likely do. Amsoil on a % basis Amsoil thickens a bit more. Mobil 1 though does show higher Fe wear across the board. Take your pick. BTW, I did not start a M1 vs Amsoil thread. It was simply intended to discuss the testing Mobil did of M1 EP.
.....it always comes down to that though doesn't it? A classic..
In figure 3 (halfway down the web page), Chevron estimates that the AC will average a 21% ding on MPG under extreme heat conditions. That is more than their estimates for the impact of jack rabbit starts and chugging up a 7% grade. In fact, AC operation is the largest hit (average) on fuel economy that they list.
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My mom does a lot of short trip driving so I'm most anxious to see how her next UOA turns out. It'll be around 5000 miles and just over one year (with GC 0w30 in a 2001 Golf with the 2.0L gas engine)
IMO, that is a better test than constant running of an engine which rarely cools down.
IMO, that is a better test than constant running of an engine which rarely cools down.
Actually it really was never debated. I would wager that 75% of the postings about amsoil thickening were attributed to Buster. I never called him on it until now.
In the 2.75 years I have been on this board I have not seen where the results of the UOA can justify claiming that AMsoil thickens more than Mobil 1 on a percent basis relative to same engine, same circumstances.
What I have noticed.
- A large number of analysis on Amsoil oils relative to others.
-A very large sampling of long drains on Amsoils.
-A lot of Amsoil samplings on users who switched to Amsoil after dino without flushing or autoRx.
-Mobil 1 thickening up a lot on some of the long drain intervals. (I guess it just depends on the vehicle)
-Mobil 1 not thickening up much on short interval
-More makeup oil with Mobil 1
-Mobil 1 UOA tend to be on vehicles which have run since new on Mobil 1.
The 3mp was the closest to a comparison and due to the problems I listed in a previous post regarding the study, I couldn't conclude there was any significant difference in viscosity over the interval.
The only other test was one with Amsoil being put in a dyno run vehicle and then run for a long OCI. Then followed with Mobil 1 for an equally long interval, then followed by GC for an equally long interval. It looked like the Amsoil did most of the cleaning, followed by Mobil 1 finishing off the cleaning, followed by GC being used on a clean engine. Again a test with serious flaws invalidating it.
Can anyone show me a valid comparison? I doubt it.
Anyway, since Mobil 1 reformulated and went up in viscosity and Amsoil went down, they both look like they will start out even for any future tests.
My personal guess is that Amsoil iron will increase due to the lower HTHS.
On the topic at hand.
Whoever said that a Vegas taxi test is more appropriate for transmissions was correct. I know that Vegas taxi fleet cars run on cheap bulk dino typically last 450k+ miles before they are replaced. This is based on the Crown Vics and Capris. No word on the newer Impalas. Police fleets here in Phoenix don't get anywhere near the life out of their cars on dino. My point. Taxi fleet driving is easy on the oil and engine.
wulimaster, your forgeting Terry, who see's many UOA's per day, knows about Amsoil thickening. All oils thicken over long drains and I agree that many that run Amsoil longer see this more so then M1 at a shorter interval. It's not a huge problem. However, it's been noted by several members running both back to back that Amsoil does thicken more rapidly, even under 10k miles. On a % basis they are close. Amsoil is an excellent oil.
I find it funny though how critical people are of this test. Lets face it, it would take 10 years to put 15k miles of stop and go driving by an old woman in an Alaskan winter to have results. Would you rather have seen all highway driving? Or the 4-ball wear test?
[ July 12, 2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
I find it funny though how critical people are of this test. Lets face it, it would take 10 years to put 15k miles of stop and go driving by an old woman in an Alaskan winter to have results. Would you rather have seen all highway driving? Or the 4-ball wear test?
[ July 12, 2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
I don't think that the Fe is going up on Amsoil. The ester in he mix should continue to help keep Fe in check. I also don't think it's a viscosity problem though some correction does take place on M1 when you go very heavy or swith to Delvac with esters. I would expect to see Pb rise at a higher percentage if an oil's getting too thin. The HTHS of M1 is also better than many dino's that don't show elevated Fe and are thinner during most of their interval. Again this is for discussion purposes as M1 is a fine oil enabling lots of high mileage and very clean vehicles.
Buster is right - just how impressed would any one be with a manufacturer guaranteeing an oil to last 2000 miles/1 year? Basically, Mobil is thumbing their nose at short trips and cold starts. Don't forget, Mobil is guaranteeing their oil to protect an engine for a year, so Aunt Minnie from Moose Jaw can throw as many cold starts/short mileage trips on her car she can stand and not worry. Well, at least if she doesn't exceed 15K in the year of driving that way.
I agree. Mobil 1 does not produce excessive valvetrain wear. It wouldn't meet all the specs it does if it did. I have spoken with 3 major companies in the last month or so. Fe is not high at all unless it's well over 100ppm. Is it higher then Amsoil? Yes it is, but nothing to be concerned about.
You have to evalute the oil's total performance - TBN, Viscosity, Wear etc. When Redline tested Amsoil, one thing they found was what we find on here, the oxidative thickening which brings the oil's performance down in terms of cold weather starting, fuel efficiency etc.
I'm not saying RL is a better oil. Point is, they all have their issues. Amsoil does better with oil consumption due to lower Noak volatility and Fe wear. Mobil 1 does better with TBN retention and Viscosity stability from what I've seen on here anyway. RL will maintain its viscosity and keep the engine cleaner then both.
I agree.. I don't think High ambiients and AC running is that much of a strain unless the engine overheats. I think the Taxi Cab test are seen as good field test becasue they acrue miles in a short period of time.. A test of Grandma's car in Minnesota winters to the grocery store... well that would take longer than we have
Man when Consumer Reports did their oil test back in the early 90's, they got ripped because they used Taxi Cabs as the source. Kind of ironic to see Mobil run the same test.
Having said that, I am sure the Mobil 1 EP is an excellent product and in fact, I will moving my wife's RX300 over to it with 10K intervals. Will be running that with a Mobil 1 EP filter and analysis from Terry to make sure all is well.
Based on current driving patterns, it will probably be early next year when the results are in.
Having said that, I am sure the Mobil 1 EP is an excellent product and in fact, I will moving my wife's RX300 over to it with 10K intervals. Will be running that with a Mobil 1 EP filter and analysis from Terry to make sure all is well.
Based on current driving patterns, it will probably be early next year when the results are in.
Taxi cabs spend alot of time operating is the a mode car manufactures call severe. Though it seems that any premium syn. oil "should" go 10,000 miles no problem unless some wierd operation or malfunction occurs.
When M1 was introduced downunder, it had "40,000km protection".
They took a Commo
dore with an old hydraulic liftered, carbed straight 6, and ran it Sydney to Perth, to Sydney to Perth (etc) for 40,000km (25,000 miles). That was the original 15W-50.
Nowadays, mobil engineers (once they realise that you are out of warranty) tell you 1 year. (without the HM oils.
hmmmmm 1 year or 25,000 miles.
They took a Commo
dore with an old hydraulic liftered, carbed straight 6, and ran it Sydney to Perth, to Sydney to Perth (etc) for 40,000km (25,000 miles). That was the original 15W-50.Nowadays, mobil engineers (once they realise that you are out of warranty) tell you 1 year. (without the HM oils.
hmmmmm 1 year or 25,000 miles.
Stop and go driving all day and night long and lots of idling in 110 degree heat in a dusty environment like Las Vegas isn't severe conditions ?
Las Vegas is HOT and experiences some of the widest range of temps in America because of the extremely low humidity found in the desert climate(heats up fast during the day and cools down fast at night)...I used to live there and in the winter it would be 80 degrees during the day and below freezing at night on a consistant basis...Yes, it gets cold in Vegas....Las Vegas is a 24 hour city so you better believe those taxis are on the run in the cold... Did I mention the dust storms ?
Summer time is HOT...Have you ever opened up your oven to check if somethings done and the heat hits your face and causes your hair to ruffle like the wind does when you're outside ? That's Las Vegas in the summer. Vegas will bake a good petroleum product like vegetable oil left in the frying pan too long leaving varnish on your new stainless steel pans...
I remember changing my oil there and it came out like black sewer water...You see lots of sidelined cars in that city...Even my parents new car overheated and broke down right when they left after visiting me there in the summer...the culprit ? Heat...So they decided against there trip to death valley after the incident. And my dad was big on keeping fresh oil in his cars...2000 miles max OCI's with petroleum products.
My owners manual lists every one of those conditions as a classification for severe driving... Las Vegas has them all in a 24 hour day.
I'd say that Mobile chose a good spot to conduct an oil test if there ever was one.
[ July 13, 2005, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: sands ]
Las Vegas is HOT and experiences some of the widest range of temps in America because of the extremely low humidity found in the desert climate(heats up fast during the day and cools down fast at night)...I used to live there and in the winter it would be 80 degrees during the day and below freezing at night on a consistant basis...Yes, it gets cold in Vegas....Las Vegas is a 24 hour city so you better believe those taxis are on the run in the cold... Did I mention the dust storms ?
Summer time is HOT...Have you ever opened up your oven to check if somethings done and the heat hits your face and causes your hair to ruffle like the wind does when you're outside ? That's Las Vegas in the summer. Vegas will bake a good petroleum product like vegetable oil left in the frying pan too long leaving varnish on your new stainless steel pans...
I remember changing my oil there and it came out like black sewer water...You see lots of sidelined cars in that city...Even my parents new car overheated and broke down right when they left after visiting me there in the summer...the culprit ? Heat...So they decided against there trip to death valley after the incident. And my dad was big on keeping fresh oil in his cars...2000 miles max OCI's with petroleum products.
My owners manual lists every one of those conditions as a classification for severe driving... Las Vegas has them all in a 24 hour day.
I'd say that Mobile chose a good spot to conduct an oil test if there ever was one.
[ July 13, 2005, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: sands ]
It's a fine test for oxidation, thickening and TBN but did anyone suspect that M1, new or old couldn't do this? After all, they weren't going to let these high mileage cabs run dry so make up oil is part of the equation. Obviously they had to test the oil before release but the rest is marketing. I also don't see dust as a major factor here. If it gets past the filter then the oil won't help with wear anyway.
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