Maybe if Toyota built the cars American's wanted to buy, they wouldn't need a government loan.
How long is this 'end' going to drag on for?
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Well if Toyota is having problems the end must be near....
Does America really need GM, its incompetent management and lazy UAW ?
I don't think so , hopefully GM shuts its doors for good and some guy in office can focus on much more important issues. And for those UAW who were laid off, do what millions of other Americans do, find another job, your free lunch is over, time to get a real job.
I don't think so , hopefully GM shuts its doors for good and some guy in office can focus on much more important issues. And for those UAW who were laid off, do what millions of other Americans do, find another job, your free lunch is over, time to get a real job.
There aren't any cars or pickups on the market that makes me want to get in $50,000 debt to buy one .I am not the type to do a refi so I can buy a new car that I can't afford.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
My bosses early 90s GMC pickup had the silver paint oxidize and start falling off after about 2 years. He had to sue GM to get them to fix it. My wife's dark blue 91 Honda accord had oxidizing clear coat after about 2 years, not falling off. The dealers service manager apologized and got the whole car repainted with no hassles.
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
My bosses early 90s GMC pickup had the silver paint oxidize and start falling off after about 2 years. He had to sue GM to get them to fix it. My wife's dark blue 91 Honda accord had oxidizing clear coat after about 2 years, not falling off. The dealers service manager apologized and got the whole car repainted with no hassles.
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you've seen how inept people are with changing tires, you might change your mind about making a spare tire optional. If they're going to call AAA either way, how big is the real advantage of a spare tire over fix-a-flat?
And what is the AAA tow truck driving going to do with a flat tire and no spare? NOTHING.
And don't assume for a second that Fix-A-Flat will mitigate all flat tire situations. It will not.
Shame on GM for cheaping it out with making the spare optional....just more proof just how stupid GM is.
He'll hook the car up to his wrecker and tow it to a safe place to repair it. The small spares are only good for 50 miles, 50 mph anyway. In every circumstance when I had a flat, fix a flat would have worked for me. There are the occasions where the tire shreds, but that's usually from people driving on it when they should have already pulled over.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you've seen how inept people are with changing tires, you might change your mind about making a spare tire optional. If they're going to call AAA either way, how big is the real advantage of a spare tire over fix-a-flat?
And what is the AAA tow truck driving going to do with a flat tire and no spare? NOTHING.
And don't assume for a second that Fix-A-Flat will mitigate all flat tire situations. It will not.
Shame on GM for cheaping it out with making the spare optional....just more proof just how stupid GM is.
He'll hook the car up to his wrecker and tow it to a safe place to repair it. The small spares are only good for 50 miles, 50 mph anyway. In every circumstance when I had a flat, fix a flat would have worked for me. There are the occasions where the tire shreds, but that's usually from people driving on it when they should have already pulled over.
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
He'll hook the car up to his wrecker and tow it to a safe place to repair it. The small spares are only good for 50 miles, 50 mph anyway. In every circumstance when I had a flat, fix a flat would have worked for me. There are the occasions where the tire shreds, but that's usually from people driving on it when they should have already pulled over.
Done that once, shredded a tire. It was 12/11/05 at like 3AM give or take. I could feel the tire pulling and wanted to make it to the next exit because I really didn't want to change a tire on the side of the interstate on a Sat night/Sun morning. Sadly the tire was coming apart so I found a stretch of road with some guard rail to dive behind should I need to.
Changed the tire after nearly coming face to face with a doe who was a surprised as I was to see one another.
I suppose pulling over right away with a can of fix-a-flat would have helped then.
My only other recent flat tire experience was back in October 2003. Just like the Dec 05 incident, I was on-call, at night and it was raining to add to the pleasure. I clipped a curb making a left turn in a construction area where the lights were down. I clipped the curb and put a golf-ball sized hole in the side wall, of a days old tire.
Fortunately the road hazzard paid off for me there. A few days later I noticed I damaged the rear tire on the same side AND days after that, I picked up a nail in yet another tire.
It was a bad 10 days for tires on that car. My tire guy got tired of seeing me.
Of course it could have been that I wasn't sleeping well or eating. My wife at the time had just left and later I discovered her affair. Sorta does you in to go through that sort of thing. I don't know how I survived the remainder of 2003, but I did.
My tires on the other hand, took the brunt of the abuse, LOL.
He'll hook the car up to his wrecker and tow it to a safe place to repair it. The small spares are only good for 50 miles, 50 mph anyway. In every circumstance when I had a flat, fix a flat would have worked for me. There are the occasions where the tire shreds, but that's usually from people driving on it when they should have already pulled over.
Done that once, shredded a tire. It was 12/11/05 at like 3AM give or take. I could feel the tire pulling and wanted to make it to the next exit because I really didn't want to change a tire on the side of the interstate on a Sat night/Sun morning. Sadly the tire was coming apart so I found a stretch of road with some guard rail to dive behind should I need to.
Changed the tire after nearly coming face to face with a doe who was a surprised as I was to see one another.
I suppose pulling over right away with a can of fix-a-flat would have helped then.
My only other recent flat tire experience was back in October 2003. Just like the Dec 05 incident, I was on-call, at night and it was raining to add to the pleasure. I clipped a curb making a left turn in a construction area where the lights were down. I clipped the curb and put a golf-ball sized hole in the side wall, of a days old tire.
Fortunately the road hazzard paid off for me there. A few days later I noticed I damaged the rear tire on the same side AND days after that, I picked up a nail in yet another tire.
It was a bad 10 days for tires on that car. My tire guy got tired of seeing me.
Of course it could have been that I wasn't sleeping well or eating. My wife at the time had just left and later I discovered her affair. Sorta does you in to go through that sort of thing. I don't know how I survived the remainder of 2003, but I did.
My tires on the other hand, took the brunt of the abuse, LOL.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The last solid year for the American auto industry was 1978. U.S. cars were mostly awesome back then. Then GM made what must be the most expensive mistake in corporate history. They spent $4 Billion(in '79 dollars) developing the X-cars. Probably a drop in the bucket compared to the collective cost of burning the greatest consumer on Earth, the American car customer. The Chevy Citation had to do more for Toyota than the Corolla ever could have. I know. I know. "They were good cars." Sure they were. And Roseanne Barr looks hotter in a bikini than Jennifer Lopez.
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
Before anyone misinterprets my perspective you should know I do not want to lose the American auto industry. In fact the only reason I'm so mad is because I care about it. I'd love to see it resurrected and thrive again. It's possible. It's worth it too.
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
If these companies go bankrupt it will be much worse than most people think. Unfortunately the UAW is a severe obstacle to viability.
You think American cars were mostly awesome in 1978? You have to be kidding, right? The mid to late 1970's where the WORSE time for American cars, as the quality was absolutely craap. It was this time period that the Japanese started to pass the USA in car reliability.
Wow!!! Some of the things one reads here...WOWOWOWOWO
The last solid year for the American auto industry was 1978. U.S. cars were mostly awesome back then. Then GM made what must be the most expensive mistake in corporate history. They spent $4 Billion(in '79 dollars) developing the X-cars. Probably a drop in the bucket compared to the collective cost of burning the greatest consumer on Earth, the American car customer. The Chevy Citation had to do more for Toyota than the Corolla ever could have. I know. I know. "They were good cars." Sure they were. And Roseanne Barr looks hotter in a bikini than Jennifer Lopez.
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
Before anyone misinterprets my perspective you should know I do not want to lose the American auto industry. In fact the only reason I'm so mad is because I care about it. I'd love to see it resurrected and thrive again. It's possible. It's worth it too.
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
If these companies go bankrupt it will be much worse than most people think. Unfortunately the UAW is a severe obstacle to viability.
You think American cars were mostly awesome in 1978? You have to be kidding, right? The mid to late 1970's where the WORSE time for American cars, as the quality was absolutely craap. It was this time period that the Japanese started to pass the USA in car reliability.
Wow!!! Some of the things one reads here...WOWOWOWOWO
Originally Posted By: lovcom
You think American cars were mostly awesome in 1978? You have to be kidding, right? The mid to late 1970's where the WORSE time for American cars, as the quality was absolutely craap. It was this time period that the Japanese started to pass the USA in car reliability.
Wow!!! Some of the things one reads here...WOWOWOWOWO [/quote]
exactly.
The 70's, the era of concave piston tops, air pumps, suspensions that hadn't improved much since the 50's, and fuel injected nothing.
You think American cars were mostly awesome in 1978? You have to be kidding, right? The mid to late 1970's where the WORSE time for American cars, as the quality was absolutely craap. It was this time period that the Japanese started to pass the USA in car reliability.
Wow!!! Some of the things one reads here...WOWOWOWOWO [/quote]
exactly.
The 70's, the era of concave piston tops, air pumps, suspensions that hadn't improved much since the 50's, and fuel injected nothing.
They need to end GM's suffering ASAP, all the workers will just have to look for another line of work.
Have you see the move 'Roger & Me' ?
Thats exactly whats going to happen when GM shuts all its doors.
Have you see the move 'Roger & Me' ?
Thats exactly whats going to happen when GM shuts all its doors.
^^^I hear Wendy's is hiring. A better idea is to not allow importers to dump their products into the USA. At the very least, tariff them as much as they do us. That's pretty easy to say, but when you're near 50 years old it gets hard to train for other lines of work. Besides, I want to be able to buy cars like the Challenger, Camaro, Mustang, Corvette, decent pickup trucks and the Japanese don't offer anything close. Generally speaking, domestics are engineered better and are easier for me to work on than imports. Some examples of this are timing belt changes on a Honda (not necessary on any domestic) and I worked on an Accord that the front end had to be disassembled and taken to a machine shop to get the rotor off. That's not good engineering to me. But the sheep will follow their Japanese master. When there is no American competition, import parts prices will go even higher than the ridiculous prices they are charging now.
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
A better idea is to not allow importers to dump their products into the USA. At the very least, tariff them as much as they do us.
Sounds like a plan to me. Fight fire with fire. You want to put your industry at an advantage with nationalized health care and absurd taxes and restrictions? Slap a $5,000 tax on every import and use it to pay for health care and support of the US auto industry. If it were up to me I'd tax them right into history.
If they want to start playing fair, then I'm fine with lifting the tax. They've been making a fool of us for years and I hate it.
A better idea is to not allow importers to dump their products into the USA. At the very least, tariff them as much as they do us.
Sounds like a plan to me. Fight fire with fire. You want to put your industry at an advantage with nationalized health care and absurd taxes and restrictions? Slap a $5,000 tax on every import and use it to pay for health care and support of the US auto industry. If it were up to me I'd tax them right into history.
If they want to start playing fair, then I'm fine with lifting the tax. They've been making a fool of us for years and I hate it.
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Some examples of this are timing belt changes on a Honda (not necessary on any domestic)
Most Honda engines use timing chains now, and most Toyotas have for some time. Meanwhile, my sister's Ford Escort has a timing belt (albeit a very easy one to replace).
On my dad's old Chevy S-10, he had to file off some of the bellhousing when he found out the starter didn't have enough clearance to come out when it needed to be replaced. Also on that model I believe the clutch replacement instructions start with "unbolt the body from the frame and lift the body off the frame" or similar. I could be wrong on this last point b/c my memory of it is rusty, but I'm pretty sure you had to jack up the body a little bit for something, and I remember it being the clutch.
Certain cars are easier to work on and certain ones are harder. I'm not sure there's really an overarching import vs domestic trend here anymore.
Some examples of this are timing belt changes on a Honda (not necessary on any domestic)
Most Honda engines use timing chains now, and most Toyotas have for some time. Meanwhile, my sister's Ford Escort has a timing belt (albeit a very easy one to replace).
On my dad's old Chevy S-10, he had to file off some of the bellhousing when he found out the starter didn't have enough clearance to come out when it needed to be replaced. Also on that model I believe the clutch replacement instructions start with "unbolt the body from the frame and lift the body off the frame" or similar. I could be wrong on this last point b/c my memory of it is rusty, but I'm pretty sure you had to jack up the body a little bit for something, and I remember it being the clutch.
Certain cars are easier to work on and certain ones are harder. I'm not sure there's really an overarching import vs domestic trend here anymore.
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Those aren't good instructions the Haynes book gives you. I remember reading those and thinking why make an easy job so difficult. All you have to do is remove the transmission from the bellhousing and the bolts are accessible. On the starter, remove the exhaust manifold to get clearance. Takes about another 20 minutes of work on each job.
Fair enough (typical Haynes manual quality). I won't argue w/ your experience on that one (although having to remove the exhaust manifold to change out a starter doesn't seem like easy maintenance to me). I just don't think the you can draw a line between imports and domestics and say one is easy to maintain and the other is difficult. I think it depends more on the specific model in question.
G.M. was great till Roger Smith became the CEO. Up untill the early 70's the American cars were pretty good.
Originally Posted By: rationull
Fair enough (typical Haynes manual quality). I won't argue w/ your experience on that one (although having to remove the exhaust manifold to change out a starter doesn't seem like easy maintenance to me). I just don't think the you can draw a line between imports and domestics and say one is easy to maintain and the other is difficult. I think it depends more on the specific model in question.
I didn't like that design either. The manifold is the reason the starters go bad to begin with. It's too close to the starter.
Fair enough (typical Haynes manual quality). I won't argue w/ your experience on that one (although having to remove the exhaust manifold to change out a starter doesn't seem like easy maintenance to me). I just don't think the you can draw a line between imports and domestics and say one is easy to maintain and the other is difficult. I think it depends more on the specific model in question.
I didn't like that design either. The manifold is the reason the starters go bad to begin with. It's too close to the starter.
If you can find a better car, buy it.
Just a little FYI, don't know if it's been covered, but Honda actually has 90% of US made parts in the Accords, Civics, CR-V's and Acura TSX and TL's that come out of the Ohio plants. That's more American content then a supposed US product!
Oh and this isn't to pick a fight, just a little fact (my old man has worked for Honda for 26 years, lots of friends and family do too, I myself do not) as I'm new here, and find the forum stimulating.
Oh and this isn't to pick a fight, just a little fact (my old man has worked for Honda for 26 years, lots of friends and family do too, I myself do not) as I'm new here, and find the forum stimulating.
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