How long is this 'end' going to drag on for?

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Its only $3.2 billion per month....

They just need a little "help".
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Sadly even if they go bankrupt, we will be "helping" out the over done contracts for the retired "workers".
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(got to payback folks)
 
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Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
I find the attitude of many "Americans" despicable.

That is all.


You must be talking about GM, Wagoner, Chrysler management, and the unions.

Yea, I agree.

GM is America's shame.
 
People who think American industries should fail are America's shame. It's gotten to the point where I'm almost embarrassed to live in this country.

As far as I'm concerned the spirit of this country died somewhere in the late 1970's. We're just a country full of consumer whores and corporate tools, now.
 
ANY "business" that looses $3,200,000,000 a MONTH should not continue.

That is a SHAME. And whoever allowed it to get this bad should go. Both the unions AND management.

Bring it back and lets all be proud of a honest days work and be part of a team, not out for our own.

I've toured a auto factory. Loved the guys in shorts putting on mirrors and hooking up connectors. About 2 mirrors and 6 -8 connectors every 6-8 mins.

That's hard work for whatever they were making.
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(and I'm sure it was a little above min wage)

And the CEO who commutes from Seattle to Detroit weekly in the Gulfstream needs a reality check too...
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They dug the hole, they need to FIX IT.

Their life will "change"...
 
I'm not saying they don't have problems. But our attitude should be that we need to FIX THEM, whatever it takes, be it remove the existing CEO's, renegotiate union contracts, provide responsible government oversight, etc.

I'm so tired of this "screw GM" I'll just buy an import attitude. That's the kind of shameful laziness and self-centered attitude that is the undoing of America.

*sigh*
 
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
People who think American industries should fail are America's shame. It's gotten to the point where I'm almost embarrassed to live in this country.

As far as I'm concerned the spirit of this country died somewhere in the late 1970's. We're just a country full of consumer whores and corporate tools, now.

Excuse me, but the Big Three and the UAW are the ones who betrayed America, the former with their complacency and the latter with their shortsightedness. They screwed up first and screwed up big, and then refused to be accountable until about five minutes ago.

In response, we are voting with our wallets and our government is using loan agreements to whip the companies into shape. I think that's quite charitable, honestly. Given how they have contributed to the burdens our children will have to bear, we have the right to be a lot angrier than we're acting right now.

We ARE fixing them. If public opinion hasn't come around yet, it's because they only just started making good cars again. Give it time. If they deserve to come back, they will be back.
 
It will go on until the UAW wakes up and smells the coffee. The UAW needs to realize that their future is tied directly to GMs. They agreed to stupid contracts in the past and are paying dearly for it now.
 
The end was when they had to beg Uncle Sugar for bucks.

What is going on now is the new beginning under servitude to the new master.

The irony is that while Uncle Sugar did not toss them in the grave - they made plenty of bone headed mistakes along the way particularly in relations with their labor force - Uncle Sugar's long standing policy of allowing any foreign manufacturer to dump products here, virtually without restriction, while keeping their home markets closed, certainly helped to dig the grave.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this may have been the Government plan all along - it's a lot easier to force an auto company to build greenie cars that no one really wants, when your loan package effectively owns the company.
 
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
But our attitude should be that we need to FIX THEM, whatever it takes, be it remove the existing CEO's, renegotiate union contracts, provide responsible government oversight, etc.


I find it interesting how people think that saving GM/Chrysler is required to salvage the US automobile industry. Do people really think that if we don't "FIX THEM", the industry will vanish in the United States and never return? Quite contrary, allowing these old dinosaurs to survive/die on their own will be the best thing to happen to them. If they survive, they will be a better company for it. If they die, then the US auto industry will come back in a different form, and will most likely be stronger, more innovative, bolder, leaner, etc.

-Bryan
 
Originally Posted By: Win
Uncle Sugar's long standing policy of allowing any foreign manufacturer to dump products here, virtually without restriction, while keeping their home markets closed, certainly helped to dig the grave.

I keep hearing this idea, but I never hear it substantiated or explained. Could you elaborate a little? I'm having trouble understanding how reducing competition could have improved the domestic auto industry.


Originally Posted By: Win
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this may have been the Government plan all along - it's a lot easier to force an auto company to build greenie cars that no one really wants, when your loan package effectively owns the company.

Actually, that is a conspiracy theory. Sorry to be technical.
 
Originally Posted By: Bryan K. Walton
Quite contrary, allowing these old dinosaurs to survive/die on their own will be the best thing to happen to them. If they survive, they will be a better company for it. If they die, then the US auto industry will come back in a different form, and will most likely be stronger, more innovative, bolder, leaner, etc.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The only question is, what will happen in the slippery time between the collapse and the rebirth? There is one (and only one) grain of truth in the UAW's propaganda: there will be a huge domino effect if any one of the Big Three collapses, and that would be especially dangerous now. The economy may not be resilient enough to weather the current storms, let alone one more.

It's just the wrong time. IMO, if this (somehow) were to happen during an otherwise good time for the economy, we wouldn't worry about it as much.
 
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
I'm not saying they don't have problems. But our attitude should be that we need to FIX THEM, whatever it takes, be it remove the existing CEO's, renegotiate union contracts, provide responsible government oversight, etc.


The government can't do it. The only way to accomplish those goals is through Ch. 11.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


It's just the wrong time. IMO, if this (somehow) were to happen during an otherwise good time for the economy, we wouldn't worry about it as much.


So, the time when a company is raking money in and not thinking about the future, mortgaging it completely on unsustainable practices is when it will fail?

This is the same result that happened after 9/11. Instead of allowing the market to do what it should have, we bailed various airlines out instead of letting them fail. Instead, we continue to have various failing airlines that still struggle to this day and a continue to go in and out of bankruptcy and struggle with overcapcity in the sense they can't charge what it really costs to provide their service.

Let the market do its thing and work. Will it be painful in the short term? Most certainly. Uncomfortable? Of course...

Instead, we continue to delay the ineveitble, while sucking up huge amounts of government resources.
 
MNgopher, I don't think you understood what I was saying. Of course I don't think the companies would fail when times are good. The scenario was just a hypothetical to illustrate that the situation prevents us from considering the companies' failures in isolation.

But, if you want to get literal, I have to object to your example of the airlines for two reasons:

1. You can argue that the government was partially accountable to the airlines for their failure since the government could have prevented 9/11.

2. As in the case of the Big Three, the government has a very real interest in preventing their failure that has nothing to do with charity or socialistic impulses. It's an act of self-preservation and in the interest of the country.
 
I see two sides of the story

GM was/is very mis-managed, the writing has been on the wall for years, but they didn't do anything to save themseleves in the big picture, why should the goverment help them now after people cashed making big bucks in the past and even now. GM had/has a attiude problem, there special the elite and america owes them.

The only reason they should be helped is to save the american Auto industry in the big picture, like all of the suppliers, even Ford maybe hurting if GM goes down
 
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