How long do electric car batteries last?

[dogememe]

My concern is how many assume all makes will have similar battery life. Yet we have seen Nissan stress the LEAF battery for better short term performance at the cost of service life. I don’t trust Madison Avenue to rate an EV’s range and protect the service life. At the moment all I trust is Tesla. Tesla is playing conservative, resisting pressure to configure a vehicle for long range over battery service life.

What do you think of GM? They are very conservative as well. The first gen Volt had tons of buffer. As they became more confident in the technology, they lessened the buffer, which is one of the reasons the second gen Volt had more range despite not having a much larger battery.

Then besides the defective cells blowing up and the recall, many high mileage Bolt owners, even though early Bolts didn’t even have a way to limit the charging to 80% (it did have a 90% limiter called Hill Top Reserve or something). They added a user selectable charge limit in later years.

The new Ultium stuff is an unknown but despite a few units receiving battery replacements, compared to how many have been sold, there are not that many reports online, FB groups, etc. mainly issues with HVAC system, telematics module failures, and software problems.

 

[jghall00]

I know I do for a fact. I have a very bad habit of turning mine off at night and leaving it on charge the entire night when in fact it is probably 100% full on charged in less than a couple hours. YET, I have never had one go bad. Lucky I suppose just like I have never owned an oil burner vehicle. Pure luck.

Many phones now have the option to limit charge to 80%. I generally use that on my phone, unless I know I'll be somewhere potentially without charging access for awhile.

 

[JeffKeryk]

My concern is how many assume all makes will have similar battery life.

Anyone who believes that is simply uninformed.

 

[Rmay635703]

Anyone who believes that is simply uninformed.

It’s worth noting many batteries were replaced in the past due to a bad $5 part like sensors in the battery or due to a single bad cell.

The diy folks when a bad cell occurred would wire it out and change the charge profile, for EVs to be rock solid right to repair and simplified battery access will have to become a thing.

Standardization should almost be mandated considering how many minor issues can take out a car.

 

[dogememe]

It’s worth noting many batteries were replaced in the past due to a bad $5 part like sensors in the battery or due to a single bad cell.

The diy folks when a bad cell occurred would wire it out and change the charge profile, for EVs to be rock solid right to repair and simplified battery access will have to become a thing.

Standardization should almost be mandated considering how many minor issues can take out a car.

Also depends on the battery. Modern Teslas with cylindrical cells are VERY difficult to replace just one. It’s technically possible but not something a random repair shop or DIYer can do.

GM Ultium stuff is supposed to be much easier to do so. That’s one of the benefits they claimed.

BUT GM isn’t off the hook entirely - if your airbag goes off, you have to replace the entire pack, because the pyro fuse is not a serviceable part. How dumb is that?

When my Prologue ended up sideways the battery was likely totally fine as nothing hit the bottom of the vehicle… I don’t know what happened to the car after it went to copart or wherever but I do hope someone was able to take the battery out and do something with it. Maybe they can take the pyro fuse out of a different pack that had a bad cell? Idk. Otherwise a total waste for an entire battery pack with like 7k miles on it to be junked.

 

[Rmay635703]

Also depends on the battery. Modern Teslas with cylindrical cells are VERY difficult to replace just one. It’s technically possible but not something a random repair shop or DIYer can do.

GM Ultium stuff is supposed to be much easier to do so. That’s one of the benefits they claimed.

BUT GM isn’t off the hook entirely - if your airbag goes off, you have to replace the entire pack, because the pyro fuse is not a serviceable part. How dumb is that?

Just as stupid as GMs temp sensors that coorode, requiring a pack section replacement because it’s scary to open the battery case.

Depending on access shorting a cell out wiring over it shouldn’t be impossible, even with cylindrical depending on where that cell is buried.

That’s all the diy folks do when they are bound and soldered.

OEMs build in absolutely zero thought or flexibility on how to safely keep equipment operating when a small inaccessible part fails.

 

[ME_Andy]

GM's got a really good reputation for long term battery life. Once they replaced the Bolt packs that caught on fire...

Have y'all heard of the Finish solid state battery that's coming out in a few months? If it's the real deal, this conversation becomes moot.

 

[jghall00]

GM's got a really good reputation for long term battery life. Once they replaced the Bolt packs that caught on fire...

Have y'all heard of the Finish solid state battery that's coming out in a few months? If it's the real deal, this conversation becomes moot.

No one think that Donut Labs battery. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 

[goblin]

...If it's the real deal, this conversation becomes moot.

If it was the real deal, the whole place would've been bombed flat by now, but still too late as the Russians would have snuck it to Siberia before the bombing.

Anyone remember the Keshe Foundation build up in 2015 ? There were specific plans promised, for specific dates - you name it. Plasma reactor free energy ring ring cash register this way please.

 

[Opelman]

Tha school district where I worked already has 3 year old electric buses in for battery replacement. 12,000 miles. Blue Bird/ Cummins units. I unfortunately don't know the failure mode causing the need for replacement.

 

[GrumpyCat]

What do you think of GM? They are very conservative as well. The first gen Volt had tons of buffer. As they became more confident in the technology, they lessened the buffer, which is one of the reasons the second gen Volt had more range despite not having a much larger battery.

GM buys batteries from the lowest cost bidder they could find.

Then besides the defective cells blowing up and the recall, many high mileage Bolt owners, even though early Bolts didn’t even have a way to limit the charging to 80% (it did have a 90% limiter called Hill Top Reserve or something). They added a user selectable charge limit in later years.

And clueless as to how to manage batteries failed to provide a means of limiting the charge on cells. Then proved the quality their vendor was providing with fires and a 100% recall.

The new Ultium stuff is an unknown but despite a few units receiving battery replacements, compared to how many have been sold, there are not that many reports online, FB groups, etc. mainly issues with HVAC system, telematics module failures, and software problems.

Is good to have low rates of infant mortality but that says almost nothing about long term service.

 

[GrumpyCat]

It’s worth noting many batteries were replaced in the past due to a bad $5 part like sensors in the battery or due to a single bad cell.

The diy folks when a bad cell occurred would wire it out and change the charge profile, for EVs to be rock solid right to repair and simplified battery access will have to become a thing.

Standardization should almost be mandated considering how many minor issues can take out a car.

Not excusable, but you are making excuses.

If one cell in 7000 fails bringing down the entire battery then that is a defective design.

 

[andrew_j]

EV seems to me to be passionate lovers or toxic haters. Very little in between .

 

[goblin]

To my knowledge the only tangential issue with the Ultium batteries is that their pyro fuse is not replaceable or serviceable, so any airbag deployment effectively totals the car.

 

[Rmay635703]

Not excusable, but you are making excuses.

If one cell in 7000 fails bringing down the entire battery then that is a defective design.

My excuse is that I’m complaining about a problem that they could have made easily repairable via a small design change so it’s a non-issue ?

A issue that diy EV makers have solved?

Do you think that I believe that a $5 sensor that should be repairable for $5 should take the whole battery out of service?

Do you think a $25 battery cell should cost $5000 to fix?

Planning for replacement makes it so a cheap failure is cheaper to repair than totalling the car.

This problem isn’t unique to EVs , I used to be able to get many automatic transmissions replaced with a rebuild for $1500 (that wasn’t that long ago) now many Toyota’s push $10,000 and they aren’t rebuildable

Tha school district where I worked already has 3 year old electric buses in for battery replacement. 12,000 miles. Blue Bird/ Cummins units. I unfortunately don't know the failure mode causing the need for replacement.

Every hd EV is basically a prototype/science experiment at this point. (Would love to see some with very long term testing)

The volume is too low for them to have gone through enough parts to achieve 6 sigma or controls.

I’ve warned many to ignore most hd application EVs due to the lack of million mile tests and lack of volume to perfect a design.

Lots of wide eyed true believers just won’t accept the reality.
And many hd makers generally don’t build like automotive as is so a big attitude adjustment is needed to get those up to bulletproof status

 

[GrumpyCat]

My excuse is that I’m complaining about a problem that they could have made easily repairable via a small design change so it’s a non-issue ?

I think you are ignoring my comment yet replying.

A issue that diy EV makers have solved?

Do you think that I believe that a $5 sensor that should be repairable for $5 should take the whole battery out of service?

Do you think a $25 battery cell should cost $5000 to fix?

Planning for replacement makes it so a cheap failure is cheaper to repair than totalling the car.

My statement was that a single cell failure out of 7000 should not require service. That if the vehicle can not drive with a single cell failure then that is a design defect.

You rant about the inability to replace a single cell but ignore the complexity of design to be able to get at that single cell. You ignore the unreliability created by making battery compartments easy to open, battery contacts easy to access. You ignore the added cost while myopically focused on a single cell.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Today's EV batteries are very reliable.
Something like 97% of EVs sold in the U.S. still use their original batteries, with failure rates less than 1% in recent years.

 

[4wd]

EV seems to me to be passionate lovers or toxic haters. Very little in between .

I don’t worry about extreme stuff - but it’s worth reading how many EV buyers also have an ICE engine vehicle or two - or go back to one

 

[dogememe]

I don’t worry about extreme stuff - but it’s worth reading how many EV buyers also have an ICE engine vehicle or two - or go back to one

I read that all over the place but not a single real person I know wants to go back to a car with an engine after having an EV.

Although I do think our moderate climate and plethora of chargers probably makes EV ownership a better experience than if you were in Alaska or something.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Charging issues is the #1 reason EV owners go back to ICE. It ain't the car.
You can find numbers that say 40% wanna go back to ICE and numbers that say 10%.
It's probably fair to say close to 100% of EV owners chose electric over ICE.

I own both; they both have their place. I humbly suggest you look at your use case before plunking down your hard earned cash.