How long do electric car batteries last?

[buster]

https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

The data confirms that modern EV batteries remain robust and are expected to last beyond a typical vehicle's service life.

Analysis of over 22,700 electric vehicles, covering 21 different vehicle models, confirms that overall, modern EV batteries are robust and built to last beyond a typical vehicle’s service life.​

 

[Astro14]

The data is interesting, but when I see a byline for the author that includes this “_____ is a sustainable transportation and electric vehicles (EVs) thought leader, working on green fleet initiatives since 2008.” It sure feels like bias.

A “thought leader”? What does that even mean? And since she is working for one thing, it’s no surprise that the one thing looks good in the report.

 

[buster]

Good catch Astro. Agree.

I do read that they last a long time FWIW.

About​

Charlotte is an advocate for the intersection between connected, electric and shared technologies in a sustainable transportation future. Her work involves sharing insights from data to build a compelling story for EV adoption in fleets. Charlotte’s background includes leading numerous multi-stakeholder programs to support EV market transformation, and is the British Columbia Chapter Chair for Women of EVs.

 

[thastinger]

What is the "service life" of an EV if the battery still works? Or maybe they are saying an EV will last longer than an ICE?

 

[Pablo]

I actually agree on the bias, for sure.

That said all the batteries I use, data I see, specialists I work with point to batteries pleasantly lasting longer than expectations. Were the initial numbers sandbagged? Perhaps. BUT this is an often a weakness people use against EV's and it's not fully true.

Except old Leafs. Hahahhahahahaa

I'm mean sure phone batteries can be tad disappointing. But bike, car, RV, tool, etc exceptional!

 

[buster]

I actually agree on the bias, for sure.

That said all the batteries I use, data I see, specialists I work with point to batteries pleasantly lasting longer than expectations. Were the initial numbers sandbagged? Perhaps. BUT this is an often a weakness people use against EV's and it's not fully true.

Except old Leafs. Hahahhahahahaa

I'm mean sure phone batteries can be tad disappointing. But bike, car, RV, tool, etc exceptional!

Agree. Def bias. But from everything I read batteries are actually lasting longer than anticipated.

 

[AZjeff]

What is the "service life" of an EV if the battery still works? Or maybe they are saying an EV will last longer than an ICE?

It says the average EV battery will have 81.6% of it's capacity at 8 years. Further searching says an EV battery is considered dead when it will only charge to 70-80%. The EV is still usable just range reduced.

 

[Hall]

Sure, there's plenty of bias.... From skeptics who hate the idea of hybrids or full-on EVs. You know, the ones that insist they ALL fail in less than 10 years, cost 4x the value of the car for a battery replacement, and so on. All false, but spread as if fact.

My wife has a Toyota hybrid and Toyota warranties everything in the hybrid system, including the main batteries, for 10 years or 150k miles. Seems to me they have confidence. I thought I read that even Honda is partnering with Toyota for their batteries because of how well theirs are.

I am a fan of hybrids and I'd love to buy one as my next vehicle. I've been looking and I'm not ready for the add'l $$ premium though. I'm not ready for a full-on EV yet myself, though it would work for me. For longer trips, we would almost always take my wife's SUV anyway.

 

[Hall]

I'm mean sure phone batteries can be tad disappointing. But bike, car, RV, tool, etc exceptional!

Batteries in phones are, IMO, this way on purpose. It encourages / forces upgrades every 2-3 years for most people. No one, even the most hard-core, Greenpeace-type hippie, would tolerate a Prius needing battery replacements in that time frame or even twice as long.

 

[TumblrDucks]

I actually agree on the bias, for sure.

That said all the batteries I use, data I see, specialists I work with point to batteries pleasantly lasting longer than expectations. Were the initial numbers sandbagged? Perhaps. BUT this is an often a weakness people use against EV's and it's not fully true.

Except old Leafs. Hahahhahahahaa

I'm mean sure phone batteries can be tad disappointing. But bike, car, RV, tool, etc exceptional!

Phone battery probably in the most severe condition. Deep cycle, little to none environmental control and spend a lot of time in near full or near empty.

Despite this we still see a good life cycle increase. For example, iPhone battery used to be 500 charge cycles before capacity degraded under 80%. Now it's 1000 charge cycles.

But I do wonder if Lithium battery tech is reaching theoretical limits...

 

[jghall00]

The data is interesting, but when I see a byline for the author that includes this “_____ is a sustainable transportation and electric vehicles (EVs) thought leader, working on green fleet initiatives since 2008.” It sure feels like bias.

A “thought leader”? What does that even mean? And since she is working for one thing, it’s no surprise that the one thing looks good in the report.

This falls under the category of ad hominem attack, specifically, appeal to motive. This person may be biased, therefore what they're saying can't be true.

The correct response is to find actual data supporting a different conclusion. I'm not aware of any studies that show degradation rates in liquid cooled batteries are high enough to render the vehicle unsuited for purpose within the average ownership period. That doesn't mean that information doesn't exist, just that I've not seen it. And believe me, I've done way too much reading on this subject matter. I have 45 kWh of LFP cells that power my home in conjunction with my panels. They're projected to last 10 to 20 years with my max .3 C-rate.

The biggest issue with fast charging and degradation was the heat, not the charging itself. Once manufacturers moved to actively cooled batteries, that issue is basically a non-issue for most models. There's still calendar aging and cycle life, especially for smaller batteries or fleet vehicles. But modern EV batteries are very stout and will likely outlast the owner's desire to keep the car. I'll likely hit 100K within four years with my Blazer EV. I'm already ready for an SS.

 

[Pablo]

Batteries in phones are, IMO, this way on purpose. It encourages / forces upgrades every 2-3 years for most people. No one, even the most hard-core, Greenpeace-type hippie, would tolerate a Prius needing battery replacements in that time frame or even twice as long.

Phone battery probably in the most severe condition. Deep cycle, little to none environmental control and spend a lot of time in near full or near empty.

Despite this we still see a good life cycle increase. For example, iPhone battery used to be 500 charge cycles before capacity degraded under 80%. Now it's 1000 charge cycles.

But I do wonder if Lithium battery tech is reaching theoretical limits...

I probably charge my phone too much

 

[y_p_w]

I actually agree on the bias, for sure.

That said all the batteries I use, data I see, specialists I work with point to batteries pleasantly lasting longer than expectations. Were the initial numbers sandbagged? Perhaps. BUT this is an often a weakness people use against EV's and it's not fully true.

Except old Leafs. Hahahhahahahaa

I'm mean sure phone batteries can be tad disappointing. But bike, car, RV, tool, etc exceptional!

The thing about small device batteries is that the device may have a limited useful life and/or the battery is relatively easy and inexpensive to replace, Relative because it was easy to replace a battery as a simple DIY exercise for many devices. So they do what they can to get higher capacity out of the battery at the expense of longevity. But if the battery is oversized and uses less of the theoretical capacity, that can increase the longevity.

 

[Pablo]

The thing about small device batteries is that the device may have a limited useful life and/or the battery is relatively easy and inexpensive to replace, Relative because it was easy to replace a battery as a simple DIY exercise for many devices. So they do what they can to get higher capacity out of the battery at the expense of longevity. But if the battery is oversized and uses less of the theoretical capacity, that can increase the longevity.

I miss my Samsung Note w/replaceable battery. Decent phone for the time, charge 2-3 batteries and viola.

 

[y_p_w]

Phone battery probably in the most severe condition. Deep cycle, little to none environmental control and spend a lot of time in near full or near empty.

Despite this we still see a good life cycle increase. For example, iPhone battery used to be 500 charge cycles before capacity degraded under 80%. Now it's 1000 charge cycles.

But I do wonder if Lithium battery tech is reaching theoretical limits...

The limits are pretty clear. It’s always been a trade off between capacity, longevity, and safety. It’s possible to even double the capacity if one is willing to accept maybe 25-50 useful cycles rather than 500.

 

[Astro14]

This falls under the category of ad hominem attack, specifically, appeal to motive. This person may be biased, therefore what they're saying can't be true.

The correct response is to find actual data supporting a different conclusion. I'm not aware of any studies that show degradation rates in liquid cooled batteries are high enough to render the vehicle unsuited for purpose within the average ownership period. That doesn't mean that information doesn't exist, just that I've not seen it. And believe me, I've done way too much reading on this subject matter. I have 45 kWh of LFP cells that power my home in conjunction with my panels. They're projected to last 10 to 20 years with my max .3 C-rate.

The biggest issue with fast charging and degradation was the heat, not the charging itself. Once manufacturers moved to actively cooled batteries, that issue is basically a non-issue for most models. There's still calendar aging and cycle life, especially for smaller batteries or fleet vehicles. But modern EV batteries are very stout and will likely outlast the owner's desire to keep the car. I'll likely hit 100K within four years with my Blazer EV. I'm already ready for an SS.

Hardly.

It’s called critical thinking - I read the entire article - and when I got to the end, I saw the byline. I doubt most of the respondents in this thread read the entire thing, and likely skimmed it. I am not finding fault with the data, or the methodology, though I dislike the car companies in question being “anonymized”. I think the article would have been more helpful had the data been detailed.

Further, much of the data wasn’t accessible - not the raw data - but only the conclusions that this author reached.

If you read a study on the relative risks of smoking, and found out the study was published by Reynolds Tobacco - would you accept the results prima facie?

I wouldn’t.

So, I accept the data in this article, and I said so, but I question the objectivity by one who is a stated “sustainable transportation and electric vehicles (EVs) thought leader, working on green fleet initiatives since 2008.”

Not an “appeal to motive” but a healthy skepticism.

 

[jghall00]

Not an “appeal to motive” but a healthy skepticism.

Fair enough. But if the author was a advocate for traditional, base load energy sources that foster American energy supremacy and enable the U.S. to dominate the extractive energy landscape, that would have altered your opinion of the content how?

 

[thastinger]

I don't know what makes the Nissan Leaf cells so desirable but used cells that are at 60% capacity are dirt cheap on the aftermarket and people are using them in PV systems. I saw a vid of an off-grid guy who literally bolted a used Leaf battery to his wall, obviously an unpermitted application, but the PV market is making charge controllers and circuitry to work with these repurposed EV batteries.

 

[PandaBear]

What is the "service life" of an EV if the battery still works? Or maybe they are saying an EV will last longer than an ICE?

Other parts on the car still wear out and end up dooming it not worth fixing is my guess.

I think most of these averages would be like how long your hard drive would last: it has more to do with whether they are lemon or have design defects or not.

 

[jghall00]

Other parts on the car still wear out and end up dooming it not worth fixing is my guess.

Anecdotally, I swapped out the rear struts on my EV with aftermarket parts that were designed for older GM models. My I-Pace air suspension went out and the replacement part was the same as that used for Land Rovers. Point being, for some manufacturers there is component overlap with none EV parts.