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And the EP tests are great!..... For gear oils and greases. Not so relevant for a PCMO.
How does Royal Purple compare to other oils?
- Thread starter smokeyfan1000
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Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: StevieC
...With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun...
I was reading a bottle yesterday (Amsoil) and it did not specifically state that it met certain specs like ILSAC GF4, etc., etc. It stated for use in cars with such and such requirements. Wording is important.
I have no doubt that it is more than good enough for those specs though, and same with RP. But it did not say it was tested and approved for them.
Am I wrong in reading it this way?
My engine doesn't require a GF-4 oil and Amsoil is always tweaking their oils so I would e-mail them.
I have every confidence in them that it would do a great job in your engine though. If they don't meet a spec it's usually because they have higher ZDDP or something that that spec doesn't allow for. E-mail Pablo/Gary for more info...
Originally Posted By: StevieC
...With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun...
I was reading a bottle yesterday (Amsoil) and it did not specifically state that it met certain specs like ILSAC GF4, etc., etc. It stated for use in cars with such and such requirements. Wording is important.
I have no doubt that it is more than good enough for those specs though, and same with RP. But it did not say it was tested and approved for them.
Am I wrong in reading it this way?
My engine doesn't require a GF-4 oil and Amsoil is always tweaking their oils so I would e-mail them.
I have every confidence in them that it would do a great job in your engine though. If they don't meet a spec it's usually because they have higher ZDDP or something that that spec doesn't allow for. E-mail Pablo/Gary for more info...
Originally Posted By: saaber1
"How does Royal Purple compare to other oils?"
It definitely has a higher concentration of purple than other oils
That's the Koolaid content put there by the Marketing Department!
"OH YEAH!" - Koolaid Guy jumps through the wall!!!!!
"How does Royal Purple compare to other oils?"
It definitely has a higher concentration of purple than other oils
That's the Koolaid content put there by the Marketing Department!
"OH YEAH!" - Koolaid Guy jumps through the wall!!!!!
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Originally Posted By: smokeyfan1000
Who has the "hard" evidence on motor oil comparison tests?? Or does every company yell "Our's Best" with no testing??
They all yell it, but there's a very small asterisk next to it.
Who has the "hard" evidence on motor oil comparison tests?? Or does every company yell "Our's Best" with no testing??
They all yell it, but there's a very small asterisk next to it.
My lawyer has an asterisk on his business card.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
To touch on NHHEMI's point...
With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun but only one of their oils is tested and certified by the API and that's their XL-7500 series oil. All others is done by their own in house testing and verified by a 3rd party lab.
I still use it with confidence because the company knows how to make certified oils as shown by their XL series, but chooses to put this "Certification" cost into the oil rather than in the pockets of the API cronies. I like this way of thinking...
A company that has been growing exponentially and beating sales forecasts for over 30 years is enough evidence for me that they know their stuff, and gives me the confidence to use their product and sleep easy at night knowing my engine is extremely well protected even with long OCI's.
Not always is the API certification the deciding factor. During the warranty period of your vehicle maybe, but after that I toss it out the window and go with what I feel is the best oil for my application regardless of API-certification approval.
Now I'm not saying RP isn't as good, as I have only tried it once, but for the price which is almost the same I feel that Amsoil is a better bang for the buck!
You do realize that RP's regular SAE oils are API certified right? It is their XPR Racing oil that is not API certified. Mostly SL but a few SM. Kind of sounds like you think they do not offer any and that is why you think Amsoil is better.
RP does not submit for mfg standard certifications for the reason you say Amsoil does not submit their other oils for API certification. Most of their certified oils are only to API SL because they feel the ZDDP reduction required for SM makes the oil inferior to SL.
To touch on NHHEMI's point...
With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun but only one of their oils is tested and certified by the API and that's their XL-7500 series oil. All others is done by their own in house testing and verified by a 3rd party lab.
I still use it with confidence because the company knows how to make certified oils as shown by their XL series, but chooses to put this "Certification" cost into the oil rather than in the pockets of the API cronies. I like this way of thinking...
A company that has been growing exponentially and beating sales forecasts for over 30 years is enough evidence for me that they know their stuff, and gives me the confidence to use their product and sleep easy at night knowing my engine is extremely well protected even with long OCI's.
Not always is the API certification the deciding factor. During the warranty period of your vehicle maybe, but after that I toss it out the window and go with what I feel is the best oil for my application regardless of API-certification approval.
Now I'm not saying RP isn't as good, as I have only tried it once, but for the price which is almost the same I feel that Amsoil is a better bang for the buck!
You do realize that RP's regular SAE oils are API certified right? It is their XPR Racing oil that is not API certified. Mostly SL but a few SM. Kind of sounds like you think they do not offer any and that is why you think Amsoil is better.
RP does not submit for mfg standard certifications for the reason you say Amsoil does not submit their other oils for API certification. Most of their certified oils are only to API SL because they feel the ZDDP reduction required for SM makes the oil inferior to SL.
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Originally Posted By: XS650
Does anyone have any hard data on how much certification fees are for various organizations? The numbers I have seen are typically in the neighborhood of $1,000 which is peanuts compared to the cost of doing the actual tests.
API's fee
Quote:
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed.
from http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/forms/upload/Instructions.pdf
That is absolute peanuts compared to the cost of actually running the tests. That makes me think that the companies that don't get API licensed don't want to run the actual required tests. The tests are expensive.
Another explanation could be that sometimes they know their oils won't meet the API specs. That could be for good or bad reasons.
When you start adding up what it would cost a mfg to get their oils API certified PLUS get them certified as meeting all of the various auto mfg's oil standards it runs extremely high( so I was told - 10's of thousands ).
I have no issue with an oil mfg not getting certified to meet an individual auto mfg's oil standard at all. Too many of them to mess with and every one of them has their grubby little hands out wanting money. I fault no oil mfg for telling them to go jump in the lake.
I think an oil mfg is smart however to get API certified.
Does anyone have any hard data on how much certification fees are for various organizations? The numbers I have seen are typically in the neighborhood of $1,000 which is peanuts compared to the cost of doing the actual tests.
API's fee
Quote:
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed.
from http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/forms/upload/Instructions.pdf
That is absolute peanuts compared to the cost of actually running the tests. That makes me think that the companies that don't get API licensed don't want to run the actual required tests. The tests are expensive.
Another explanation could be that sometimes they know their oils won't meet the API specs. That could be for good or bad reasons.
When you start adding up what it would cost a mfg to get their oils API certified PLUS get them certified as meeting all of the various auto mfg's oil standards it runs extremely high( so I was told - 10's of thousands ).
I have no issue with an oil mfg not getting certified to meet an individual auto mfg's oil standard at all. Too many of them to mess with and every one of them has their grubby little hands out wanting money. I fault no oil mfg for telling them to go jump in the lake.
I think an oil mfg is smart however to get API certified.
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RP 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 are API licensed, though not against SM for some reason (only SL). Give them credit for not trying to intentionally mislead consumers with carefully chosen adjectives in front of the API specs they reference.
No mention of GM4718M on their online data sheet. Wonder why the use big bold letters on their bottle?
Let's not bring other brands who are apparently paralyzed by the staggering ~$1000 API licensing fee (that is assuming that they actually have taken and passed ALL the API test requirements). If you can't pass all the API tests, it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't want to spend your money actually taking other industry standard ENGINE tests like those that are part of GM4718M. It's much simpler to try and pull the wool over the eyes of consumers using carefully chosen adjectives in front of the spec name we all know consumers are looking for in print.
No mention of GM4718M on their online data sheet. Wonder why the use big bold letters on their bottle?
Let's not bring other brands who are apparently paralyzed by the staggering ~$1000 API licensing fee (that is assuming that they actually have taken and passed ALL the API test requirements). If you can't pass all the API tests, it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't want to spend your money actually taking other industry standard ENGINE tests like those that are part of GM4718M. It's much simpler to try and pull the wool over the eyes of consumers using carefully chosen adjectives in front of the spec name we all know consumers are looking for in print.
It's true that the API licensing fees are cheap, but the testing itself is supposed to be expensive:
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/api_licensing.htm
Certification is a voluntary program, and it only guarantess that an oil meets minimum standards. The premium synthetic oils usually meet or exceed these standards. These companies cannot afford testing when they sell a small volume of products. It would price them out of the market.
That doesn't mean the companies don't test their own products, or that consumers don't test them with UOAs and everyday use.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/api_licensing.htm
Certification is a voluntary program, and it only guarantess that an oil meets minimum standards. The premium synthetic oils usually meet or exceed these standards. These companies cannot afford testing when they sell a small volume of products. It would price them out of the market.
That doesn't mean the companies don't test their own products, or that consumers don't test them with UOAs and everyday use.
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Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: StevieC
To touch on NHHEMI's point...
With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun but only one of their oils is tested and certified by the API and that's their XL-7500 series oil. All others is done by their own in house testing and verified by a 3rd party lab.
I still use it with confidence because the company knows how to make certified oils as shown by their XL series, but chooses to put this "Certification" cost into the oil rather than in the pockets of the API cronies. I like this way of thinking...
A company that has been growing exponentially and beating sales forecasts for over 30 years is enough evidence for me that they know their stuff, and gives me the confidence to use their product and sleep easy at night knowing my engine is extremely well protected even with long OCI's.
Not always is the API certification the deciding factor. During the warranty period of your vehicle maybe, but after that I toss it out the window and go with what I feel is the best oil for my application regardless of API-certification approval.
Now I'm not saying RP isn't as good, as I have only tried it once, but for the price which is almost the same I feel that Amsoil is a better bang for the buck!
You do realize that RP's regular SAE oils are API certified right? It is their XPR Racing oil that is not API certified. Mostly SL but a few SM. Kind of sounds like you think they do not offer any and that is why you think Amsoil is better.
RP does not submit for mfg standard certifications for the reason you say Amsoil does not submit their other oils for API certification. Most of their certified oils are only to API SL because they feel the ZDDP reduction required for SM makes the oil inferior to SL.
Oh no... I know that their oils are API certified... I was talking about Amsoil. Sorry for the confusion.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
To touch on NHHEMI's point...
With Amsoil they claim to meet all the spec's under the sun but only one of their oils is tested and certified by the API and that's their XL-7500 series oil. All others is done by their own in house testing and verified by a 3rd party lab.
I still use it with confidence because the company knows how to make certified oils as shown by their XL series, but chooses to put this "Certification" cost into the oil rather than in the pockets of the API cronies. I like this way of thinking...
A company that has been growing exponentially and beating sales forecasts for over 30 years is enough evidence for me that they know their stuff, and gives me the confidence to use their product and sleep easy at night knowing my engine is extremely well protected even with long OCI's.
Not always is the API certification the deciding factor. During the warranty period of your vehicle maybe, but after that I toss it out the window and go with what I feel is the best oil for my application regardless of API-certification approval.
Now I'm not saying RP isn't as good, as I have only tried it once, but for the price which is almost the same I feel that Amsoil is a better bang for the buck!
You do realize that RP's regular SAE oils are API certified right? It is their XPR Racing oil that is not API certified. Mostly SL but a few SM. Kind of sounds like you think they do not offer any and that is why you think Amsoil is better.
RP does not submit for mfg standard certifications for the reason you say Amsoil does not submit their other oils for API certification. Most of their certified oils are only to API SL because they feel the ZDDP reduction required for SM makes the oil inferior to SL.
Oh no... I know that their oils are API certified... I was talking about Amsoil. Sorry for the confusion.
Originally Posted By: OilGuy
RP 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 are API licensed, though not against SM for some reason (only SL). Give them credit for not trying to intentionally mislead consumers with carefully chosen adjectives in front of the API specs they reference.
No mention of GM4718M on their online data sheet. Wonder why the use big bold letters on their bottle?
Let's not bring other brands who are apparently paralyzed by the staggering ~$1000 API licensing fee (that is assuming that they actually have taken and passed ALL the API test requirements). If you can't pass all the API tests, it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't want to spend your money actually taking other industry standard ENGINE tests like those that are part of GM4718M. It's much simpler to try and pull the wool over the eyes of consumers using carefully chosen adjectives in front of the spec name we all know consumers are looking for in print.
OilGuy;
I have specifically asked the why not API SM question of Royal Purple multiple times and the same answer is given each time. The bottom line is they have chosen not to certify most of their oils to API SM due to the reduction of allowed ZDDP parts p/million. They feel that by reducing the ZDDP to try and extend the catalytic converter life you are sacrificing the oils wear protection.
They have stayed at API SL for most weights as a result and according to them they have no plans to reformulate. I don't personally believe in "never will" comments. I imagine in time they will reformulate to meet a newer standard. Maybe not. They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however. Take it for what it is worth and put whatever faith in it you wish.
Just for an FYI for anyone interested. RP's API certified oils...
LONG RIDER 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM
LONG RIDER 5W-20 SL*
LONG RIDER 5W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 0W-40 SM/CF
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-30 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM**
ROYAL PURPLE 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL**
ROYAL PURPLE 20W-50 CF/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 30 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 40 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 50 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-20 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-40 SM/CF
ROYAL PURPLE DD 40 CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 10W-30 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL**
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 40 CF,CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER DD 40 CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER PLUS 10W-30 CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER PLUS 15W-40 CI-4/SL
* - Energy Conserving
** - CI-4 Plus
All of RP's licenses run out August 8, 2009. I will be curious to see what happens then.
RP 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 are API licensed, though not against SM for some reason (only SL). Give them credit for not trying to intentionally mislead consumers with carefully chosen adjectives in front of the API specs they reference.
No mention of GM4718M on their online data sheet. Wonder why the use big bold letters on their bottle?
Let's not bring other brands who are apparently paralyzed by the staggering ~$1000 API licensing fee (that is assuming that they actually have taken and passed ALL the API test requirements). If you can't pass all the API tests, it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't want to spend your money actually taking other industry standard ENGINE tests like those that are part of GM4718M. It's much simpler to try and pull the wool over the eyes of consumers using carefully chosen adjectives in front of the spec name we all know consumers are looking for in print.
OilGuy;
I have specifically asked the why not API SM question of Royal Purple multiple times and the same answer is given each time. The bottom line is they have chosen not to certify most of their oils to API SM due to the reduction of allowed ZDDP parts p/million. They feel that by reducing the ZDDP to try and extend the catalytic converter life you are sacrificing the oils wear protection.
They have stayed at API SL for most weights as a result and according to them they have no plans to reformulate. I don't personally believe in "never will" comments. I imagine in time they will reformulate to meet a newer standard. Maybe not. They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however. Take it for what it is worth and put whatever faith in it you wish.
Just for an FYI for anyone interested. RP's API certified oils...
LONG RIDER 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM
LONG RIDER 5W-20 SL*
LONG RIDER 5W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 0W-40 SM/CF
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-30 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 10W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM**
ROYAL PURPLE 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL**
ROYAL PURPLE 20W-50 CF/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 30 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 40 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 50 CF,CF-2/SJ
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-20 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-30 SL*
ROYAL PURPLE 5W-40 SM/CF
ROYAL PURPLE DD 40 CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 10W-30 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 15W-40 CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL**
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER 40 CF,CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER DD 40 CF-2
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER PLUS 10W-30 CI-4/SL
ROYAL PURPLE LONG RIDER PLUS 15W-40 CI-4/SL
* - Energy Conserving
** - CI-4 Plus
All of RP's licenses run out August 8, 2009. I will be curious to see what happens then.
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If a common over the counter gives all the protection needed, using an oil with higher base stocks or additive levels will not buy you anything .If realistically you run the engine hars etc them the benefits could be worth the extra price. I have seen so many people buy expensive oil and filters change it at 5,000 miles and think they are doing the best and sell the car at 100,000 miles. When the cheapest filters and proper rated oil will let the engine outlast the first and second owners.
Who's to say that API specs are the end all, be all? Oil companies setting codes doesn't exactly insure the best interests of consumers. That would be similar to used car dealers writing used car warranties.
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Exactly. We're fortunate to have the standards of API Certification, but it's only a starting point.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Exactly. We're fortunate to have the standards of API Certification, but it's only a starting point.
+1
... And shouldn't be the only deciding factor either!
Exactly. We're fortunate to have the standards of API Certification, but it's only a starting point.
+1
Uhh, if long-term trending analysis has any real significance at all I would say their oils are as good as any out there. It's up to you whether you wish to pay what they ask for it. I've had samples analized in a number of my customer's cars over a year and a half period and it performed in every application very well with numbers looking better with each UOA. I have gas applications that are running it out to 12K between services with very good numbers and one deisel application that is running the 15/40 oil in a 7.3PS to 17K. Most of the hate around here stems from someone running one or two UOA's and declaring the oil is trash because their $20 UOA did not look good to them. The rest stems from the fact that they won't divuldge proprietary info as to their formulation. They have clearly stated that their oil is formulated with grp4 base stocks with group2+ for additive carrier oil. One well-respected analist on here has spoken quite highly of them after working with their oil products. This however will not be enough for some.
My advice to you if you are really interested in the oil buy enough so you can run at least 4 or 5 intervals. Take an initial VOA sample of the oil and then start running a reasonable interval like 5K mi. Ifall is well at 5K extend it out another 1-2K based on the analists reccommendations. Once you have reached the first interval's drain service the engine and then see how the oil looks at the end of that interval. You may actually start seeing some data that means something by the time you get to your third or fourth oil change. If your reports start looking better then you know the oil is working well for you and the cost/benifit of the oil is better than you thought at first. If not,at least you will know your data has some measure of accuracy to it. It's silly how some will fret like a old woman if their iron level with one oil is 10ppm more in ONE or TWO uoas as compared to another oil. In reality, there's not an oil on the shelf that meets your car's specs that won't keep your engine running way past your own death if your service interval is accurate. 10-20-30PPM in one oil change?? At that rate, that engine will be running well long after you are not running at all.
Yes, their products are very well made. Decide for yourself whether the price is worth the benifit. The real Koolaid drinkers are the ones that set themselves up as an authority when they have not done the long -term trending analysis to base their claims on.
RP has never touted their oils to be long-drain oils but they do quite well in what I consider to be small-sumpped Asian and "American" cars. If you engine's sump is 4qts(which is the average)10-12K on an oil change is pretty good. RP will hold quite well in many of those applications for that interval but in others no oil is suited for that long.
My advice to you if you are really interested in the oil buy enough so you can run at least 4 or 5 intervals. Take an initial VOA sample of the oil and then start running a reasonable interval like 5K mi. Ifall is well at 5K extend it out another 1-2K based on the analists reccommendations. Once you have reached the first interval's drain service the engine and then see how the oil looks at the end of that interval. You may actually start seeing some data that means something by the time you get to your third or fourth oil change. If your reports start looking better then you know the oil is working well for you and the cost/benifit of the oil is better than you thought at first. If not,at least you will know your data has some measure of accuracy to it. It's silly how some will fret like a old woman if their iron level with one oil is 10ppm more in ONE or TWO uoas as compared to another oil. In reality, there's not an oil on the shelf that meets your car's specs that won't keep your engine running way past your own death if your service interval is accurate. 10-20-30PPM in one oil change?? At that rate, that engine will be running well long after you are not running at all.
Yes, their products are very well made. Decide for yourself whether the price is worth the benifit. The real Koolaid drinkers are the ones that set themselves up as an authority when they have not done the long -term trending analysis to base their claims on.
RP has never touted their oils to be long-drain oils but they do quite well in what I consider to be small-sumpped Asian and "American" cars. If you engine's sump is 4qts(which is the average)10-12K on an oil change is pretty good. RP will hold quite well in many of those applications for that interval but in others no oil is suited for that long.
Originally Posted By: sprintman
RP the charlatans of the oil companies. They won't even publish HTHS figures which are critical say for BMW owners to select the correct oil. Give them a miss imo.
Email them and ask them. They would be more than happy to tell you. It is not "secret" information. They just didn't include it in their PDF's. Though they do say RP 10w40 has a 4.02 HTHS on the PDF.
In reply to many other posts in this thread.. People need to quit nit-picking Royal Purple.
I know many of you don't want to hear this but Royal Purple is as good or better than Amsoil. Deal with it.
RP the charlatans of the oil companies. They won't even publish HTHS figures which are critical say for BMW owners to select the correct oil. Give them a miss imo.
Email them and ask them. They would be more than happy to tell you. It is not "secret" information. They just didn't include it in their PDF's. Though they do say RP 10w40 has a 4.02 HTHS on the PDF.
In reply to many other posts in this thread.. People need to quit nit-picking Royal Purple.
I know many of you don't want to hear this but Royal Purple is as good or better than Amsoil. Deal with it.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however.
Cool. Where do I find out the details? Is it on their site or do I need to email them?
They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however.
Cool. Where do I find out the details? Is it on their site or do I need to email them?
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however.
Cool. Where do I find out the details? Is it on their site or do I need to email them?
PM'd a copy of it to you.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
They are offering a warranty to cover any auto mfg' warranty denails for running API SL where API SM is called for however.
Cool. Where do I find out the details? Is it on their site or do I need to email them?
PM'd a copy of it to you.
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