I'm at 5000'+ altitude and all our Shell Premium is 91 due to the altitude. Less octane needed. Still 10% ethanol though.
How do fuel deliveries work to the stations?
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I believe that most tankers are independently owned and operated regardless of the name sprayed on the tank.
I'd also doubt that any one tanker goes from one station to the next off-loading fuel at each since a tanker holds ~9K gallons IIIC and any station would have to have UST capacity well beyond that. A busy station would go through 9K gallons in a matter of hours since that would only fill four or five hundred vehicles.
My understanding is that the additives are mixed in at the rack for whatever brand station the tanker is going to.
Stations also wouldn't be paying for frequent top-offs since you get a price break if you take a greater volume.
I ordered 7K gallons at work on 12/31. We have a 10K gallon UST but it has more than 1K gallons remaining in it and you can never actually put 10K gallons in it since you have to allow some ullage.
We get a price break at 5K gallons IIRC, so it pays to wait until we can take at least that. We'll also be paying pretty low prices, so I can either pat myself on the back for good timing or acknowledge that I was lucky on that.
As an aside, have you ever wondered why you rarely see anyone sticking tanks anymore? If you have something like the Veeder-Root system we have at work, there's no need to.
I'd also doubt that any one tanker goes from one station to the next off-loading fuel at each since a tanker holds ~9K gallons IIIC and any station would have to have UST capacity well beyond that. A busy station would go through 9K gallons in a matter of hours since that would only fill four or five hundred vehicles.
My understanding is that the additives are mixed in at the rack for whatever brand station the tanker is going to.
Stations also wouldn't be paying for frequent top-offs since you get a price break if you take a greater volume.
I ordered 7K gallons at work on 12/31. We have a 10K gallon UST but it has more than 1K gallons remaining in it and you can never actually put 10K gallons in it since you have to allow some ullage.
We get a price break at 5K gallons IIRC, so it pays to wait until we can take at least that. We'll also be paying pretty low prices, so I can either pat myself on the back for good timing or acknowledge that I was lucky on that.
As an aside, have you ever wondered why you rarely see anyone sticking tanks anymore? If you have something like the Veeder-Root system we have at work, there's no need to.
Slightly off-topic, but here's an interesting scenario:
One of my friends drives a highly modified BRZ (turbo'ed) which runs on 91 octane. His car had an aftermarket Ethanol sensor installed. Our pump gas is E10 here in CA.
He claims to have done testing with all of the available fuels in our area (Shell, Chevron, Costco, 76, Arco) and all brands have tested to have 10% Ethanol except Arco; all of the Arco fuel that he has tested has consistently shown 15% Ethanol.
How is this possible?
One of my friends drives a highly modified BRZ (turbo'ed) which runs on 91 octane. His car had an aftermarket Ethanol sensor installed. Our pump gas is E10 here in CA.
He claims to have done testing with all of the available fuels in our area (Shell, Chevron, Costco, 76, Arco) and all brands have tested to have 10% Ethanol except Arco; all of the Arco fuel that he has tested has consistently shown 15% Ethanol.
How is this possible?
"How is this possible?" People lie and steal perhaps?
Originally Posted by The Critic
Slightly off-topic, but here's an interesting scenario:
One of my friends drives a highly modified BRZ (turbo'ed) which runs on 91 octane. His car had an aftermarket Ethanol sensor installed. Our pump gas is E10 here in CA.
He claims to have done testing with all of the available fuels in our area (Shell, Chevron, Costco, 76, Arco) and all brands have tested to have 10% Ethanol except Arco; all of the Arco fuel that he has tested has consistently shown 15% Ethanol.
How is this possible?
There were big problems with fuel tampering in Oz about 10 years ago.
Stations buying toluene, xylene, ethanol etc. on some sort of market, and obviously without road taxes, and dumping it into the tanks.
Slightly off-topic, but here's an interesting scenario:
One of my friends drives a highly modified BRZ (turbo'ed) which runs on 91 octane. His car had an aftermarket Ethanol sensor installed. Our pump gas is E10 here in CA.
He claims to have done testing with all of the available fuels in our area (Shell, Chevron, Costco, 76, Arco) and all brands have tested to have 10% Ethanol except Arco; all of the Arco fuel that he has tested has consistently shown 15% Ethanol.
How is this possible?
There were big problems with fuel tampering in Oz about 10 years ago.
Stations buying toluene, xylene, ethanol etc. on some sort of market, and obviously without road taxes, and dumping it into the tanks.
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by Mainia
Super America here in Minnesota was bought out by SpeedWay. No 4 cent discount now unless you buy $4 inside the store. A lot of people I know don't go there anymore. Then I see 10 cent discount signs on the pump end cap. Then now I looked, they are not Top Tier. What a BS company STAY AWAY!! SAD how crap companies buy good companies and WRECK THEM FOREVER.
Super America has been owned by Speedway since the Marathon Ashland station buyout of approx. 15 years ago, they were forced to continue using the Super America name in MN due to some kind of copyright issue. Speedway is actually owned by Marathon Oil, but they're definitely not TT. They were a major customer of my employer until 3 years ago, but all the company vehicle fuel issues I've had have been with Speedway fuel, not to mention the stories I've heard about excessive amounts of ethanol in their E10 in the past. We don't call them GREEDWAY for nothing!
our Speedways used to be Gastown stores...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedway_LLC
just wow.
I especially like this section:
"In 2001, Speedway's truck stop chain was merged into the Pilot Travel Centers brand after Marathon and Pilot Corporation entered into a partnership to form Pilot Travel Centers. Pilot has since bought out Marathon's interest in Pilot Travel Centers, now Pilot Flying J. Following its merger with Hess Corporation's retail chain in 2014, six WilcoHess locations in Virginia were rebranded as Pilot locations and jointly operated between Pilot Flying J and Speedway.[6] On June 23, 2016, Pilot Flying J and Speedway announced a new joint venture between the two companies that will see 41 Speedway locations (all former Wilco Hess locations) and 79 Pilot Flying J locations primarily in the Southeastern United States form PFJ Southeast LLC. The locations will be operated by Pilot Flying J and the Speedway locations will be rebranded as either Pilot or Flying J."
Little town north of me, Beaverdam OH. (at the intersection of US 30& I-75) has 3 truck stops. opened in the following order:
Flying J
Speedway*
Pilot
The Pilot and Flying J are across the street(Lincoln Highway) from each other, the speedway is on the other side of 75.
*so the speedway isn't technically a truck stop, (no lounge, or showers, etc), but they do have the separate, larger Fuel islands for Tractor-trailers, etc.
Originally Posted by Mainia
Super America here in Minnesota was bought out by SpeedWay. No 4 cent discount now unless you buy $4 inside the store. A lot of people I know don't go there anymore. Then I see 10 cent discount signs on the pump end cap. Then now I looked, they are not Top Tier. What a BS company STAY AWAY!! SAD how crap companies buy good companies and WRECK THEM FOREVER.
Super America has been owned by Speedway since the Marathon Ashland station buyout of approx. 15 years ago, they were forced to continue using the Super America name in MN due to some kind of copyright issue. Speedway is actually owned by Marathon Oil, but they're definitely not TT. They were a major customer of my employer until 3 years ago, but all the company vehicle fuel issues I've had have been with Speedway fuel, not to mention the stories I've heard about excessive amounts of ethanol in their E10 in the past. We don't call them GREEDWAY for nothing!
our Speedways used to be Gastown stores...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedway_LLC
just wow.
I especially like this section:
"In 2001, Speedway's truck stop chain was merged into the Pilot Travel Centers brand after Marathon and Pilot Corporation entered into a partnership to form Pilot Travel Centers. Pilot has since bought out Marathon's interest in Pilot Travel Centers, now Pilot Flying J. Following its merger with Hess Corporation's retail chain in 2014, six WilcoHess locations in Virginia were rebranded as Pilot locations and jointly operated between Pilot Flying J and Speedway.[6] On June 23, 2016, Pilot Flying J and Speedway announced a new joint venture between the two companies that will see 41 Speedway locations (all former Wilco Hess locations) and 79 Pilot Flying J locations primarily in the Southeastern United States form PFJ Southeast LLC. The locations will be operated by Pilot Flying J and the Speedway locations will be rebranded as either Pilot or Flying J."
Little town north of me, Beaverdam OH. (at the intersection of US 30& I-75) has 3 truck stops. opened in the following order:
Flying J
Speedway*
Pilot
The Pilot and Flying J are across the street(Lincoln Highway) from each other, the speedway is on the other side of 75.
*so the speedway isn't technically a truck stop, (no lounge, or showers, etc), but they do have the separate, larger Fuel islands for Tractor-trailers, etc.
The Costco where I live has a fuel station that fill up the tankers literally 2 blocks away. I would think they get the fuel from the same place but I don't want to get in trouble because I cannot prove they get it there but I think they do. I would think it would make for less expensive deliveries.
Here in San Diego we have a tank farm that gets gas from a pipeline coming down from Los Angeles. All the stations get the same gas with different additives added at the tank farm when the trucks are filled.
I had been listening to news talk this one time and had some guys on there that were explaining that up here on a few refineries make gas and it gets wholesaled. Depending on who is producing and who is not, you might buy PetroCan but actually be getting Co-op or any iteration.
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by Mainia
Super America here in Minnesota was bought out by SpeedWay. No 4 cent discount now unless you buy $4 inside the store. A lot of people I know don't go there anymore. Then I see 10 cent discount signs on the pump end cap. Then now I looked, they are not Top Tier. What a BS company STAY AWAY!! SAD how crap companies buy good companies and WRECK THEM FOREVER.
Super America has been owned by Speedway since the Marathon Ashland station buyout of approx. 15 years ago, they were forced to continue using the Super America name in MN due to some kind of copyright issue. Speedway is actually owned by Marathon Oil, but they're definitely not TT. They were a major customer of my employer until 3 years ago, but all the company vehicle fuel issues I've had have been with Speedway fuel, not to mention the stories I've heard about excessive amounts of ethanol in their E10 in the past. We don't call them GREEDWAY for nothing!
Super America was sold by Marathon Petroleum along with the St. Paul Park refinery years ago. It was tossed around through several owners since. Now with the recent Marathon Petroleum purchase of Andeavor, it's all part of Marathon again.
Speedway stations are Marathon company owned, Marathon branded stations are all jobbers, ever since the 1998 Marathon Ashland joint venture.
Marathon Oil has nothing to do with refining or retail, that company is pure upstream.
Originally Posted by Mainia
Super America here in Minnesota was bought out by SpeedWay. No 4 cent discount now unless you buy $4 inside the store. A lot of people I know don't go there anymore. Then I see 10 cent discount signs on the pump end cap. Then now I looked, they are not Top Tier. What a BS company STAY AWAY!! SAD how crap companies buy good companies and WRECK THEM FOREVER.
Super America has been owned by Speedway since the Marathon Ashland station buyout of approx. 15 years ago, they were forced to continue using the Super America name in MN due to some kind of copyright issue. Speedway is actually owned by Marathon Oil, but they're definitely not TT. They were a major customer of my employer until 3 years ago, but all the company vehicle fuel issues I've had have been with Speedway fuel, not to mention the stories I've heard about excessive amounts of ethanol in their E10 in the past. We don't call them GREEDWAY for nothing!
Super America was sold by Marathon Petroleum along with the St. Paul Park refinery years ago. It was tossed around through several owners since. Now with the recent Marathon Petroleum purchase of Andeavor, it's all part of Marathon again.
Speedway stations are Marathon company owned, Marathon branded stations are all jobbers, ever since the 1998 Marathon Ashland joint venture.
Marathon Oil has nothing to do with refining or retail, that company is pure upstream.
Except for Costco, all additives are injected at the terminal during truck loading.
These trailers have multiple compartments and can (and do) haul segregated volumes for delivery to different locations. It's efficiency.
These trailers have multiple compartments and can (and do) haul segregated volumes for delivery to different locations. It's efficiency.
Originally Posted by earlyre
as i've said before, (my personal experience, YMMV, etc, etc.)
in my area, 100% of the gas sold comes from the local refinery (they provide around 25% of the gas sold in OH).
whether it's a shell/ bp/ marathon/whatever branded tanker, they all fill up at the local fuel depot, with the appropriate add packs mixed in at the terminal.
when i've done shifts @ our Meijer gas station, our Hauler is called Atlas oil, they may bring us 2 or more deliveries in a day.( a few times a week), of up to 8,000 gallons each.
luckily we're only about 10 mi from the Depot/terminal.
many days after they finish with us, they have to then get another load, and head to the Findlay store(about 40-45 min up I-75). if they need multiple deliveries in Findlay, it's back down to Lima to fill the tanker, then back to Findlay, etc.
Findlay has E-85, we Don't. If we had E-85, they would have to go to up into MI to get it, as the Lima Terminal Doesn't offer it. (only 2 stations in our county carry E-85, both located right off the interstate - and only one station in the county has E0 gas, and only 91octane- a Casey's a little further down 75. everything else in the area is E10. )
Strange if trucks making deliveries to the Findlay Meijer store are required to lift at the terminal in Lima when there's a Marathon terminal in Findlay (which was originally the site of an Ashland refinery). It's just off I75 on the south side of Findlay.
as i've said before, (my personal experience, YMMV, etc, etc.)
in my area, 100% of the gas sold comes from the local refinery (they provide around 25% of the gas sold in OH).
whether it's a shell/ bp/ marathon/whatever branded tanker, they all fill up at the local fuel depot, with the appropriate add packs mixed in at the terminal.
when i've done shifts @ our Meijer gas station, our Hauler is called Atlas oil, they may bring us 2 or more deliveries in a day.( a few times a week), of up to 8,000 gallons each.
luckily we're only about 10 mi from the Depot/terminal.
many days after they finish with us, they have to then get another load, and head to the Findlay store(about 40-45 min up I-75). if they need multiple deliveries in Findlay, it's back down to Lima to fill the tanker, then back to Findlay, etc.
Findlay has E-85, we Don't. If we had E-85, they would have to go to up into MI to get it, as the Lima Terminal Doesn't offer it. (only 2 stations in our county carry E-85, both located right off the interstate - and only one station in the county has E0 gas, and only 91octane- a Casey's a little further down 75. everything else in the area is E10. )
Strange if trucks making deliveries to the Findlay Meijer store are required to lift at the terminal in Lima when there's a Marathon terminal in Findlay (which was originally the site of an Ashland refinery). It's just off I75 on the south side of Findlay.
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Similar recent thread - seems like this type of thing is asked and answered often here.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4967105/1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4967105/1
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by earlyre
as i've said before, (my personal experience, YMMV, etc, etc.)
in my area, 100% of the gas sold comes from the local refinery (they provide around 25% of the gas sold in OH).
whether it's a shell/ bp/ marathon/whatever branded tanker, they all fill up at the local fuel depot, with the appropriate add packs mixed in at the terminal.
when i've done shifts @ our Meijer gas station, our Hauler is called Atlas oil, they may bring us 2 or more deliveries in a day.( a few times a week), of up to 8,000 gallons each.
luckily we're only about 10 mi from the Depot/terminal.
many days after they finish with us, they have to then get another load, and head to the Findlay store(about 40-45 min up I-75). if they need multiple deliveries in Findlay, it's back down to Lima to fill the tanker, then back to Findlay, etc.
Findlay has E-85, we Don't. If we had E-85, they would have to go to up into MI to get it, as the Lima Terminal Doesn't offer it. (only 2 stations in our county carry E-85, both located right off the interstate - and only one station in the county has E0 gas, and only 91octane- a Casey's a little further down 75. everything else in the area is E10. )
Strange if trucks making deliveries to the Findlay Meijer store are required to lift at the terminal in Lima when there's a Marathon terminal in Findlay (which was originally the site of an Ashland refinery). It's just off I75 on the south side of Findlay.
I know exactly where the tank farm you're referring to is. It surprised me as well when I asked the drivers....
The drivers that service us come all the way down from Toledo.
Originally Posted by earlyre
as i've said before, (my personal experience, YMMV, etc, etc.)
in my area, 100% of the gas sold comes from the local refinery (they provide around 25% of the gas sold in OH).
whether it's a shell/ bp/ marathon/whatever branded tanker, they all fill up at the local fuel depot, with the appropriate add packs mixed in at the terminal.
when i've done shifts @ our Meijer gas station, our Hauler is called Atlas oil, they may bring us 2 or more deliveries in a day.( a few times a week), of up to 8,000 gallons each.
luckily we're only about 10 mi from the Depot/terminal.
many days after they finish with us, they have to then get another load, and head to the Findlay store(about 40-45 min up I-75). if they need multiple deliveries in Findlay, it's back down to Lima to fill the tanker, then back to Findlay, etc.
Findlay has E-85, we Don't. If we had E-85, they would have to go to up into MI to get it, as the Lima Terminal Doesn't offer it. (only 2 stations in our county carry E-85, both located right off the interstate - and only one station in the county has E0 gas, and only 91octane- a Casey's a little further down 75. everything else in the area is E10. )
Strange if trucks making deliveries to the Findlay Meijer store are required to lift at the terminal in Lima when there's a Marathon terminal in Findlay (which was originally the site of an Ashland refinery). It's just off I75 on the south side of Findlay.
I know exactly where the tank farm you're referring to is. It surprised me as well when I asked the drivers....
The drivers that service us come all the way down from Toledo.
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Interesting. Meijer must have a pretty selective supply agreement.
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Interesting. Meijer must have a pretty selective supply agreement.
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
As I said, they don't fill up directly at the refinery, but at the marathon owned tank farm/fuel Depot, a mile or so up the road.... I'm sure both are connected to a pipeline network, so one refinery can pick up slack if need be...( That last part is pure speculation on my part, but just makes sense to me)
Interesting. Meijer must have a pretty selective supply agreement.
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
As I said, they don't fill up directly at the refinery, but at the marathon owned tank farm/fuel Depot, a mile or so up the road.... I'm sure both are connected to a pipeline network, so one refinery can pick up slack if need be...( That last part is pure speculation on my part, but just makes sense to me)
Originally Posted by earlyre
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Interesting. Meijer must have a pretty selective supply agreement.
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
As I said, they don't fill up directly at the refinery, but at the marathon owned tank farm/fuel Depot, a mile or so up the road.... I'm sure both are connected to a pipeline network, so one refinery can pick up slack if need be...( That last part is pure speculation on my part, but just makes sense to me)
It does indeed make sense from a terminal source alternatives perspective, the Buckeye pipeline system is one I know of in the area. But not from why trucks delivering to Meijer in Findlay don't load at the Findlay Marathon terminal for no other reason than fuel efficiency of the truck operator in terms of distance covered with a loaded trailer. Plus the fact the Lima refinery is the shortest distance to the Findlay terminal as a typical source of supply for that terminal in terms of pipeline tariff costs. Meijer is not a Top Tier brand so no branded additive package is required. Curious, but the business world is full of things that make little sense to this retired engineer. Once things get in the hands of marketers, all bets are off I've learned.
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Interesting. Meijer must have a pretty selective supply agreement.
There are times, planned and unplanned, when refinery units or the whole refinery shuts down, and supply to a market area has to be brought in from a different source. I wonder how Meijer manages this when the Lima refinery is at reduced throughput or shuts down?
As I said, they don't fill up directly at the refinery, but at the marathon owned tank farm/fuel Depot, a mile or so up the road.... I'm sure both are connected to a pipeline network, so one refinery can pick up slack if need be...( That last part is pure speculation on my part, but just makes sense to me)
It does indeed make sense from a terminal source alternatives perspective, the Buckeye pipeline system is one I know of in the area. But not from why trucks delivering to Meijer in Findlay don't load at the Findlay Marathon terminal for no other reason than fuel efficiency of the truck operator in terms of distance covered with a loaded trailer. Plus the fact the Lima refinery is the shortest distance to the Findlay terminal as a typical source of supply for that terminal in terms of pipeline tariff costs. Meijer is not a Top Tier brand so no branded additive package is required. Curious, but the business world is full of things that make little sense to this retired engineer. Once things get in the hands of marketers, all bets are off I've learned.
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Originally Posted by Nyogtha
It does indeed make sense from a terminal source alternatives perspective, the Buckeye pipeline system is one I know of in the area.
http://www.buckeye.com/AboutUs/SystemMap/tabid/57/Default.aspx
Round and round it goes. Where it stops nobody know.
It does indeed make sense from a terminal source alternatives perspective, the Buckeye pipeline system is one I know of in the area.
Round and round it goes. Where it stops nobody know.
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Once things get in the hands of marketers, all bets are off I've learned.
I just had a conversation with one of them today. Lots of factors go into where the barrels move to.
Once things get in the hands of marketers, all bets are off I've learned.
I just had a conversation with one of them today. Lots of factors go into where the barrels move to.
Yes true.
FWIW My wife has worked that logistics end of the business since 1998 after being a refinery support engineer for 4 years, she's now a senior computer modeling manager for blending and logistics optimization systems at what was Andeavor HQ here, now a piece of our last employer, Marathon. She's at the Detroit refinery facilitating upgrades to such systems this week. So I have some passing familiarity with typical arrangements from shop talk at home, even after I retired. I worked my way through school as an independent cargo inspector in yhe industry starting in 1986 so I'm familiar with charter parties and delivery contractural obligations from the perspective of independant auditor from cargoes as heavy as asphalt and heavy sour crude to as light as liquified ammonia and liquified 1,3 butadiene.
It doesn't change ny perspective on Meijer's arrangements being less than efficient when viewed at face value. But that's where my wife earns her living, optimizing such arrangements on behalf of her employer. There are always opportunities due to departmental disconnects especially at HQ at every company we've worked for.
The first company I worked for had an independant trader with two folks from our HQ on two different phones at the same time, one looking to perform a sale of diesel wet barrels and the other looking for a quick source of diesel wet barrels - and the offices of those two people were down a hall from each other on the same floor of the corporate HQ. That was before email and IM and text messaging further disincentived people getting out of their habitat and communicating. The trader stoid to get a piece of the action of both ends of a deal that came about solely due to lack of internal communication. Low hanging fruit to automate more of the data collection and optimization.
FWIW My wife has worked that logistics end of the business since 1998 after being a refinery support engineer for 4 years, she's now a senior computer modeling manager for blending and logistics optimization systems at what was Andeavor HQ here, now a piece of our last employer, Marathon. She's at the Detroit refinery facilitating upgrades to such systems this week. So I have some passing familiarity with typical arrangements from shop talk at home, even after I retired. I worked my way through school as an independent cargo inspector in yhe industry starting in 1986 so I'm familiar with charter parties and delivery contractural obligations from the perspective of independant auditor from cargoes as heavy as asphalt and heavy sour crude to as light as liquified ammonia and liquified 1,3 butadiene.
It doesn't change ny perspective on Meijer's arrangements being less than efficient when viewed at face value. But that's where my wife earns her living, optimizing such arrangements on behalf of her employer. There are always opportunities due to departmental disconnects especially at HQ at every company we've worked for.
The first company I worked for had an independant trader with two folks from our HQ on two different phones at the same time, one looking to perform a sale of diesel wet barrels and the other looking for a quick source of diesel wet barrels - and the offices of those two people were down a hall from each other on the same floor of the corporate HQ. That was before email and IM and text messaging further disincentived people getting out of their habitat and communicating. The trader stoid to get a piece of the action of both ends of a deal that came about solely due to lack of internal communication. Low hanging fruit to automate more of the data collection and optimization.
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