How clean is the new oil you use?

Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by George Bynum
I'm bothered by the chemistry much more than the cleanliness. In industrial hydraulics, we've preached the lack of cleanliness of bulk oil. BUT, we typically pass a full reservoir through the pumps and filters multiple times an hour. Circulating at low pressures for a day or so will usually reach equilibrium established by the filter media. I certainly want to strain the oil through something that doesn't pass particles large enough to clog orifices or block sliding parts. Filling through a 15-25 micron nominal element is good enough to me. I'd bet that the bulk oil isn't Dexos 1 gen 2 ... that concerns me.
I have my suspicions as well, Why put the latest and greatest, and take on the associated costs into many vehicles that may not need it. More than likely a run of the mill 5w-30, API SN put out by ExxonMobil. Attached is the photo of the tank. Looks like it has been in use for years.

20190316_083541.jpg
 
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Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Increased wear due to the unnecessary introduction of contaminents in an engine. Goal is extended oil changes and extend life of the engine. If I was leasing the vehicle or trade it in every three years, answer would be no.
Yes, but... Nobody... Nobody... Nobody... Says, geez.... If only I hadn't used that bulk oil, I would've gotten to 250k. And here's the proof!
Dude, we are no long in Junior High.
 

Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Originally Posted by Imp4
If we take it as a given they these contamination levels are different from one another, the separate question that then needs to he asked is: "Does this difference matter in the given application?" In all likelihood, the answer is an emphatic "No". Putting it another way, yes these values are different from one another. So what?!? How does the fact that one has a higher particle count impact my application??? It doesn't.
Granted this oil is not going into the 10 MegaWatt powerplant that supports NORAD in Colorado Springs, but in this application for my use it does matter. Increased wear due to the unnecessary introduction of contaminents in an engine. Goal is extended oil changes and extend life of the engine. If I was leasing the vehicle or trade it in every three years, answer would be no.
So the big question is, what will you do? What will you do?
Buy my oil from a reputable source that tests for cleanliness and that has been blended and bottled at the same facility.
 

Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Originally Posted by Imp4
If we take it as a given they these contamination levels are different from one another, the separate question that then needs to he asked is: "Does this difference matter in the given application?" In all likelihood, the answer is an emphatic "No". Putting it another way, yes these values are different from one another. So what?!? How does the fact that one has a higher particle count impact my application??? It doesn't.
Granted this oil is not going into the 10 MegaWatt powerplant that supports NORAD in Colorado Springs, but in this application for my use it does matter. Increased wear due to the unnecessary introduction of contaminents in an engine. Goal is extended oil changes and extend life of the engine. If I was leasing the vehicle or trade it in every three years, answer would be no.
It doesn't matter and you are contradicting your statements unless you plan on extending drains on bulk oil not recommended for extended drains.
What statements are contradicting?
 

Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Originally Posted by PandaBear
I wouldn't worry about those "particles" in new oil, because your engine will generate way more than the oil came with, and would be filtered out over time by the oil filter.
How much less particulates would the engine generate without the addition of these potentially wear producing particulates from the start? I am not even talking about the 10-20% of the oil that remains in the engine, 99% of the hard particulates in the same VOA are less than 20 microns. What percentage of these will be caught by a filter that has an absolute efficiency of 25-30 microns?
Use a high efficiency oil filter that's 99% @ 20 microns. ISO codes of used oil with a good oil filter are typically in the ISO 23/17/11 to 23/18/12 range. Used engine oil will have more 4 micron particles than that bulk oil, but will be cleaner above 4 microns. You need a full blown 2 micron oil bypass filtering system to clean up in the 4 microns range. An oil filter that is 25-30 microns absolute is crap ... guy better oil filters.
I sampled the new oil (bulk) after it had been ran in the engine for 15 minutes at an average of 2k rpm to ensure mixing. The 4um count increased from 12286 to 114770 (ISO Code 24). The estimated amount of old oil is 10%. For this small amount to raise the particle count 8x, the original amount of particulates at 4um must have been literally off the scale. The oil had only 1700 miles after a few months, and no abnormal wear indications. There was a slight decrease in 6um, and decrease (code 13) in 14um using a the standard AC Delco full flow filter. Who makes a full flow filter that is 99% @ 20 microns. I have used by-pass filters many years ago and will likely try it again. The engine I have is prone to sludge, carbon build up on the pistons, rings and intake valves due to GDI reducing life substantially. Pistons and rings, and valve job required after only 85K, dealer paid, using standard Dexos approved oil and normal OCI's under normal service..
 
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Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I sampled the new oil (bulk) after it had been ran in the engine for 15 minutes at an average of 2k rpm to ensure mixing. The 4um count increased from 12286 to 114770 (ISO Code 24). The estimated amount of old oil is 10%. For this small amount to raise the particle count 8x, the original amount of particulates at 4um must have been literally off the scale. The oil had only 1700 miles after a few months, and no abnormal wear indications. There was a slight decrease in 6um, and decrease (code 13) in 14um using a the standard AC Delco full flow filter. Who makes a full flow filter that is 99% @ 20 microns. I have used by-pass filters many years ago and will likely try it again. The engine I have is prone to sludge, carbon build up on the pistons, rings and intake valves due to GDI reducing life substantially. Pistons and rings, and valve job required after only 85K, dealer paid, using standard Dexos approved oil and normal OCI's under normal service..
I'm wondering if the new oil was doing some cleaning if that engine had sludge and ring carbon issues, and thats why the PC shot up so high. A regular AC Delco filter probably isn't very high efficiency. Any spin on filter, even high efficiency ones, will still pass a lot of 4~5μ particles, but should be better than what you saw with the AC Delco I would say. Hang out in the oil filter forum for all the latest filter talk, and how they compare. How did you take the oil samples?
 
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I sampled the new oil (bulk) after it had been ran in the engine for 15 minutes at an average of 2k rpm to ensure mixing. The 4um count increased from 12286 to 114770 (ISO Code 24). The estimated amount of old oil is 10%. For this small amount to raise the particle count 8x, the original amount of particulates at 4um must have been literally off the scale. The oil had only 1700 miles after a few months, and no abnormal wear indications. There was a slight decrease in 6um, and decrease (code 13) in 14um using a the standard AC Delco full flow filter. Who makes a full flow filter that is 99% @ 20 microns. I have used by-pass filters many years ago and will likely try it again. The engine I have is prone to sludge, carbon build up on the pistons, rings and intake valves due to GDI reducing life substantially. Pistons and rings, and valve job required after only 85K, dealer paid, using standard Dexos approved oil and normal OCI's under normal service..
I'm wondering if the new oil was doing some cleaning if that engine had sludge and ring carbon issues, and thats why the PC shot up so high. A regular AC Delco filter probably isn't very high efficiency. Any spin on filter, even high efficiency ones, will still pass a lot of 4~5μ particles, but should be better than what you saw with the AC Delco I would say. Hang out in the oil filter forum for all the latest filter talk, and how they compare.
Don;t blame any cabon and sludge on the prior oil filters. Blame it on the owner for neglect and due diligence. Change your oil more often folks and buy oils that actually say on the label that it removes sludge and contains or lessens carbon/deposit buildup. Hard to find such wording with that Walmart 5w30 oil. But I keep looking on every trip down the auto aisle there. All the label says is that Supertech synthetic will PROTECT all that sludge and varnish you might have. How nice of Warren to protect all of my sludge. Hey Warren, who might want to steal my sludge from me? Will they use my varnish to seal their backyard wood deck?
 
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Originally Posted by Jesse_NE
People sure are jumping to a lot of conclusions over a non-randomized sample size of one.
I think the overriding principle is that the more we blindly rely on other parties to accomplish a task, the more we can't really be sure we are getting what we are bargaining for (brand, grade, quality, etc., i.e., fitness for a particular purpose).
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Don;t blame any cabon and sludge on the prior oil filters. Blame it on the owner for neglect and due diligence.
I wasn't blaming the filter for any prior sludge and carbon. I was just saying the AC Delco filter was probably not very high efficiency, so if the new oil was doing some cleaning and releasing sludge and carbon, then that could have been why the 4μ level shot up and the filter couldn't catch much of the particles that small.
 
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There is always a chance for contamination every time the oil is handled and it's one of the reasons I like to change my own oil. But I'd like to point out that the bulk oil sample taken by the OP is seemingly normal in particle counts. The bottled oil was exceptionally clean and maybe normal for the brand, but I have a few VOAs to note. From SubieRubyRoo's VOA of Delo XLE (another exceptionally clean sample). ISO code 17/16/12 4 um 869 6 um 338 14 um 25 50 um 1 100 um 0 From a few of my recent VOAs (all from sealed bottles) Note that these are as dirty or dirtier than the OP's bulk oil. Sorry it isn't a nice presentation blush Edge 5W-30 ...May '18 .. April '19 .... Valvoline transfer case ISO Code .... 21/19/15 .... 22/20/17 .... 22/20/16 4 um ...... 17372 ........ 28030 ....... 21624 6 um ....... 3650 ........ 9727 ........... 7006 10 um ....... 830 ..... 2803 ........ 1626 14 um ...... 229 ..... 821 ....... 478 18 um ....... 116 ....... 383 ....... 236 21 um ....... 81 ......... 251 ........ 168 38 um ......... 19 ....... 52 ...... 56 50 um ....... 11 ........ 34 ........ 38
 
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I do it myself : 5 qrt. jugs , let the oil drain to a drip then pour a little new , clearance oil I've bought through and let it drain to a drip . Then refill , change filter , check for leaks and I'm done (about a 30 to 40 minute process , I'm in no hurry) .
 

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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I sampled the new oil (bulk) after it had been ran in the engine for 15 minutes at an average of 2k rpm to ensure mixing. The 4um count increased from 12286 to 114770 (ISO Code 24). The estimated amount of old oil is 10%. For this small amount to raise the particle count 8x, the original amount of particulates at 4um must have been literally off the scale. The oil had only 1700 miles after a few months, and no abnormal wear indications. There was a slight decrease in 6um, and decrease (code 13) in 14um using a the standard AC Delco full flow filter. Who makes a full flow filter that is 99% @ 20 microns. I have used by-pass filters many years ago and will likely try it again. The engine I have is prone to sludge, carbon build up on the pistons, rings and intake valves due to GDI reducing life substantially. Pistons and rings, and valve job required after only 85K, dealer paid, using standard Dexos approved oil and normal OCI's under normal service..
I'm wondering if the new oil was doing some cleaning if that engine had sludge and ring carbon issues, and thats why the PC shot up so high. A regular AC Delco filter probably isn't very high efficiency. Any spin on filter, even high efficiency ones, will still pass a lot of 4~5μ particles, but should be better than what you saw with the AC Delco I would say. Hang out in the oil filter forum for all the latest filter talk, and how they compare. How did you take the oil samples?
The pistons and rings were replaced, and had the dealer clean the oil pan, timing chain cover, and valve cover. I had the head professionally cleaned and valves reground, and new seals. Except for the little bit of oil in oil galleys and bottom 1/3 of the crankcase, it should have been a very clean engine. Any sludge, varnish removal would have occured in the next 1700 miles which was drained, and new oil put it. That is why I am so surprised at the PC after only 15 minutes of operation. The UOA was taken from the top 1" of the oil sump using an extractor after operating the engine and reaching 90C. .VOAs was from the quart bottle or from dispenser at the lube service.
 

Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I sampled the new oil (bulk) after it had been ran in the engine for 15 minutes at an average of 2k rpm to ensure mixing. The 4um count increased from 12286 to 114770 (ISO Code 24). The estimated amount of old oil is 10%. For this small amount to raise the particle count 8x, the original amount of particulates at 4um must have been literally off the scale. The oil had only 1700 miles after a few months, and no abnormal wear indications. There was a slight decrease in 6um, and decrease (code 13) in 14um using a the standard AC Delco full flow filter. Who makes a full flow filter that is 99% @ 20 microns. I have used by-pass filters many years ago and will likely try it again. The engine I have is prone to sludge, carbon build up on the pistons, rings and intake valves due to GDI reducing life substantially. Pistons and rings, and valve job required after only 85K, dealer paid, using standard Dexos approved oil and normal OCI's under normal service..
I'm wondering if the new oil was doing some cleaning if that engine had sludge and ring carbon issues, and thats why the PC shot up so high. A regular AC Delco filter probably isn't very high efficiency. Any spin on filter, even high efficiency ones, will still pass a lot of 4~5μ particles, but should be better than what you saw with the AC Delco I would say. Hang out in the oil filter forum for all the latest filter talk, and how they compare. How did you take the oil samples?
The pistons and rings were replaced, and had the dealer clean the oil pan, timing chain cover, and valve cover. I had the head professionally cleaned and valves reground, and new seals. Except for the little bit of oil in oil galleys and bottom 1/3 of the crankcase, it should have been a very clean engine. Any sludge, varnish removal would have occured in the next 1700 miles which was drained, and new oil put it. That is why I am so surprised at the PC after only 15 minutes of operation. The UOA was taken from the top 1" of the oil sump using an extractor after operating the engine and reaching 90C. .VOAs was from the quart bottle or from dispenser at the lube service.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
[quote=Triple_Se7en]Don;t blame any cabon and sludge on the prior oil filters. Blame it on the owner for neglect and due diligence.
 
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Talent_Keyhole

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Originally Posted by dave1251
You said the goal is extended drains but you chose a oil not recommended for extended drains.
My goal is to use Amsoil SS, but in the meantime, I chose to use the Dealer's Dexos oil, considering they just spent $2k on replacing the pistons and rings under warranty due to excessive oil consumption and I had the cylinder head cleaned and valves ground. I did not want to introduce a 100% synthetic oil immediately after the work was done. They refused to hone the cylinders, which is standard so the rings would wear/seat properly, so I went with their oil, so they could not blame the oil I used if oil consumption continued. After 4k miles it looks like the oil consumption is resolved, and compression in all 4 cylinders are 250-255psi, and leakdown is less than 5% in all four. Once I figure out what is normal with GDI fuel dilution for this engine I will switch over to Amsoil SS. Again as I stated that is my goal.... extended engine life and extended drain intervals.
 
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This was done on a rebuild? To me that skews the particle count tremendously. Even if you say it was clean the engine had to perform some breaking in on the rings etc.
 
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Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
The UOA was taken from the top 1" of the oil sump using an extractor after operating the engine and reaching 90C. .VOAs was from the quart bottle or from dispenser at the lube service.
How long after the engine was shutdown was the oil extracted from the sump? And was the new bottle of oil shook up prior to sampling?
 
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