How can an oil Retailer make this statement?

[crinkles]

With regards to 5w-40 engine oil:

from
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_subcateg=1&id_products=1
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/PI_HPR 5.pdf


"Greater engine protection at operating
temperatures compared to 5W-30 oils due to
higher operating viscosity."

"Semi-synthetic for the latest generation of high performance engines, particularly those with variable valve timing. Use where SAE 5W-30 or 10W-30 oils and ILSAC GF-3/GF-4 fuel economy oils are called for."



(1) I have learnt here that better flow equals better protection, and a lower viscosity oil has better flow.

(2) Why recommend a non-ILSAC engine oil for uses where ILSAC engine oils are specified?

I would say Penrite Oils subscribe to the thicker is better philosophy?

 

[Shannow]

Crickles,
anything that Penrite, Nulon, Or Gulf Western say should be taken with at least an LD50 doese of salt.

They are self contradicting, and often just plain wrong.

 

[crinkles]

Shannow, I am beginning to agree more and more with that!

Reason I ask is, drove a work ute again today, last time I drove it it was on its FF and noisy as heck. THis time, it's 2000km past it's service and I checked the logbooks, cos it felt very smooth and quiet. Turns out the garage (REPCO service chain) had used HPR 15 Diesel which is a 15w-50 oil when the books recommend a 5w-30 diesel oil...

it's confusing - it felt good driving a diesel ute that didn't feel like a mack truck but I am not impressed by Penrite's marketing...

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: crinkles



(1) I have learnt here that better flow equals better protection, and a lower viscosity oil has better flow.





Really ?

Who from ?

What about HTHS and film thickness ?

 

[Mark888]

I think it is basically correct that an 5W-40 provides better engine protection against thermal breakdown than a 5W-30 at operating temps (especially in a warm climate). But a lower viscosity oil may have other benefits such as increased fuel economy, more horsepower, less friction, and better flow at startup.

It all depends on the engine manufacturer specifications and requirements. Some engines run hotter than others, and I presume that is why many German engines (and turbos of jsut about any make) often specify 0W-40 oils rather than 0W-30 or 0W-20.

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
Originally Posted By: crinkles



(1) I have learnt here that better flow equals better protection, and a lower viscosity oil has better flow.





Really ?

Who from ?

What about HTHS and film thickness ?

Well,

"a lower viscosity oil has better flow" this will always be true for any fluid flow all else being equal.

"better flow equals better protection"

well, lets just say through reading many opinions. I have no factual data. AEHAAS has some posts on it, but, just like everyone else here, I can't take anything for fact.

how many engines and conditions get to 150 deg C to make HTHS worth worrying about?

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: Mark888


It all depends on the engine manufacturer specifications and requirements. Some engines run hotter than others, and I presume that is why many German engines (and turbos of jsut about any make) often specify 0W-40 oils rather than 0W-30 or 0W-20.


how many degrees hotter than 100 deg C would a 40 weight have to be before getting to the viscosity of a 30-weight? (will it ever??)

 

[tdi-rick]

FWIW I agree with Shannows statement, although Penrite do make some very worthy lubricants, I can't stand their marketing.
I don't necessarily agree with your (or Dr Haas's_) statement and I was using ultra low viscosity engine oils probably long before anyone else on this board.

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: crinkles


how many degrees hotter than 100 deg C would a 40 weight have to be before getting to the viscosity of a 30-weight?


Depends on the actual kinematic viscosity and the VI of the respective oils.

Plug some numbers into this and have a play http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3655/VI.html

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
FWIW I agree with Shannows statement, although Penrite do make some very worthy lubricants, I can't stand their marketing.
I don't necessarily agree with your (or Dr Haas's_) statement and I was using ultra low viscosity engine oils probably long before anyone else on this board.


there is often times a big holden ute in Penrite decals parked in front of the hotel in our town with busty babes pouring out. I don't mind that side of their marketing (my wife does, however)

FWIW like I said i have formed my opinion (which may not be correct) based on what i've read but I would like to know the TRUTH as in what's best. It seems very hard to come by!

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
FWIW I agree with Shannows statement, although Penrite do make some very worthy lubricants


which ones?

As far as I know they do not sell a 30 weight . Is there a reason for this? lack of demand?

it seems that garages generally do not bother with what is printed in the service manual.

 

[crinkles]

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/about.php?id=2

"Penrite make a Better Class of Oil. They always go the Extra 10 above the industry benchmark. So if the industry recommends a 10W-30 for example, Penrite make a 10W-40. That’s just another part of their commitment to making the best oil for your car.

The W number on the front of the pack tells you the viscosity of the oil at start up temperature, while the second number describes the oil’s viscosity at its operating temperature. All oils thin out as they get hotter. The higher the second number, the less the oil will thin out. The thicker the oil, the greater the protection for your engine. Which means less wear and greater oil flow which is good news for you and your car."


the last sentence seems contradictory. greater oil flow with higher viscosity?

 

[Shannow]

Less leakage around the oil pump clearances.

Engine oil pumps are positive displacement, and shift (largely) the same volume of oil per revolution.

Overly thin oils have higher internal leakage. Overly thick oils push oil through the bypass, and not the bearings.

Penrite advertising their "plus 10" concept is ludicrous, because (at least in our market) the OEM has a pretty good idea of what you need to look after your engine. Toyota's charts are great IMO.

And by keeping the "W" number, and extending their "hot" number, they are potentially increasing shearing (potentially).

And their advertising against friction modifiers is a 20 plus year old argument.

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: crinkles



As far as I know they do not sell a 30 weight . Is there a reason for this? lack of demand?



Yes, their entire marketing philosophy has always been based on 'thicker is better' and Australians conservatism when it comes to oils.
If they sold an xW-30, it would make a lie of their entire marketing approach which they have maintained since inception

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


And their advertising against friction modifiers is a 20 plus year old argument.


Do they still say that ??

I actually have a low SAPS 10W-40 of theirs in two engines ATM, there should be a UOA of one in a couple of weeks.

 

[oilyriser]

"Penrite make a "


They need a new editor.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Penrite advertising their "plus 10" concept is ludicrous, because (at least in our market) the OEM has a pretty good idea of what you need to look after your engine. Toyota's charts are great IMO.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser
"Penrite make a "


They need a new editor.


Don't you speak Strine? Or British?

I thought Americans were the only people that only spoke one language.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: crinkles


Well,

"a lower viscosity oil has better flow" this will always be true for any fluid flow all else being equal.

"better flow equals better protection"

But better film strength/HTHS also equals better protection. Who will prove that your "better" is better than my "better"?

Water has better flow than oil. Does it mean water offers better protection?

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: crinkles
...the last sentence seems contradictory. greater oil flow with higher viscosity?

There is a point at which an engine gets so hot, that a lower viscosity oil is just too thin to provide good protection. But with synthetics, the lines tend to get blurred because they provide excellent low temp flow and excellent protection against high temp breakdown. I think that a 5W-40 has to be at least a Group III synthetic.

Note that they do not recommend 5W-40 for engines which spec 5W-20, so I don't think they are being irresponsible in claiming that it could be used for engines that spec 5W-30 or 10W-30, especially if the engine is a turbo or certain German engines that specifies a 30-40 weight to be used. Older engines might also benefit from a 5W-40 oil. But the vast majority of vehicles probably would be better off with 5W-20 or 5W-30.