How bad is WOT for your car?

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WOT? Best thing for a car. No extra wear and tear expected. Cars are built to go WOT...they have a limiter so no damage can possibly occur. I know a guy who is friends with a guys brother-in-law that drives his Pontiac Aztek at full throttle 80% of the time just commuting to work....then on the weekends he runs his car on the drag strip. I think he's got well over 250k miles now...and not a DROP of oil does it burn!
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Most will never know because they buy into the popular anti-Chrysler drivel that flows like rain around here. Some of us have noted that rear drive platforms from them have improved dramatically, and they are durable and economical. I have driven around all day and never gone over 2 grand, and it is effortless to keep up with the little guys flogging the bees knees out of their econocars.

If I buy something I expect the ENTIRE performance envelope. There is no way I will tip toe around imagining that I am somehow extending the life of the car. That is simply not true.

Then that effortless power begins to talk, and you're hooked...


It has of course a lot to do with the effective torque...and yes, getting hooked on that special sweetspot every engine-tranny combo has...

Kitacam's MT cruises comfortably @ 2k, but doesn't get "cooking" until 2500k rpm (like most econoboxes I suspect)....I've always felt that MTs shifting @ 3.5k-4.5k can efficiently pull away from red lights plenty quick without WOT, while econo-ATs running on auto-pilot are ineffective and can't (giving them their well deserved poor reputation), having sacrificed performance for MPG...

I'll generally glide @ 2k-2500 rpm...but....

...if quick lane changing is needed on local streets and 2-lane highways, I run Kitacam in lower gears @ about 2500 rpms as I had with so many 4-sp gear boxes through the 70s and 80s (Bimmer 2002, Fiat Spider, Mitsu/Dodge Sapporo-Galant),...that gives me more gitup-n-go torque and just enough engine braking to keep me under the MPH limit....and just leave 5th in the bullpen until cruizin' at interstate speeds 65+mph (@ 2500-3k rpm again)....


I get razzed a lot from those who have never driven MT Camrys, but I get it why they wouldn't understand...what I wish for now is an MT hooked up to the V6 like Toyo did until this century...THAT would be SOMEthing.


That's the beauty of your manual trans. My car allows a near full manual override by selecting the Autostick mode, and my aftermarket tune makes it react very smartly. While our cars are not very similar it sounds like you enjoy yours just as much, which is what it is all about. I have fun in anything I drive...
 
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: artificialist
I can't exactly prove it, but in high school, the Honda "tuner" crowd who redlined their engines regularly blew blue smoke. It hardly ever happened to Hondas driven by gentler drivers.

BMW has a way of warning people that redlining a cold engine was bad. The tachometer would move the red zone to a lower RPM until proper temperature was reached.



Thats because they are econo engines. And these kids think by adding a cold intake, and F*RT can muffler makes it an instant race motor.


I actually beat a Honda ricer at a 2 lane to 1 on my way to NH a couple of weeks ago. He revved the pOOp can and I looked over and smiled. The cool part is, I was pulling my Jeep/trailer on the way to a snow run. These Coyote 5.0L's are underrated, IMO.

Speaking of, the snow was thigh deep in spots and the 454 powered buggy leading the way was pulling cable. I bounced off the rev limiter in my screamn' squirrels 2.5L a few times.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The "progressive redline" on the M5 starts at 4K. I typically shift it around 2-3 until the oil temp is around 75C. IIRC, this is a bit more conservative than the car, as full redline is revealed at around 70C or so.


Since it would seem that load is even more important than just rpm I imagine the car benefits from a light foot.

These days with all the tech and advancements coupled with amazing oils I doubt warm up is nearly as important as we all think.
 
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
I get razzed a lot from those who have never driven MT Camrys


It may something to do with referring to the car as "kitacam" all the time.
smile.gif



I'm a land-lubber and Kitacam's is my beer-budget highway yacht...and so it gets named...
wink.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
I get razzed a lot from those who have never driven MT Camrys


It may something to do with referring to the car as "kitacam" all the time.
smile.gif



I agree
 
Glad no one was in the school! Thank god for that. This was a good lesson for the 18 yr old. He won't have a WOT habit anymore. And no one was hurt.
 
Luckily it had rained a lot the days before. No kids playing football/soccer that day.
Road was dry when the accident happened.
Driver claims speed was 25 mph
smile.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Olas
At normal operating temperature, WOT is perfdectly fine so long as you're not banging into the limiter all the time.

If it's cold or cool or warm but NOT HOT, WOT is a bottom-end killer.


Pardon?
Dude. The rev limiter is set by the factory at a point where no damage can occur. You could drive bouncing off the limiter all day as long as the cooling system could keep up.
And what's this not hot drivel. You can't be serious. How is being hot an issue if proper oil pressure is maintained.
Are you related to ole turt.

Originally Posted By: rockydee
How did 2K rpm become a magic number for a cold engine? Reaching 2,200 or 2,500 from gradual acceleration is bad?


It's not however it's the rpm I'm comfortable with until the engine reaches operating temp. It's very possible that engines have the ability to rev higher cold and still minimize wear however considering my commute,the highway and so on I don't need to run it at a higher rpm to keep up or maintain speed.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Most will never know because they buy into the popular anti-Chrysler drivel that flows like rain around here. Some of us have noted that rear drive platforms from them have improved dramatically, and they are durable and economical. I have driven around all day and never gone over 2 grand, and it is effortless to keep up with the little guys flogging the bees knees out of their econocars.

If I buy something I expect the ENTIRE performance envelope. There is no way I will tip toe around imagining that I am somehow extending the life of the car. That is simply not true.

Then that effortless power begins to talk, and you're hooked...


It has of course a lot to do with the effective torque...and yes, getting hooked on that special sweetspot every engine-tranny combo has...

Kitacam's MT cruises comfortably @ 2k, but doesn't get "cooking" until 2500k rpm (like most econoboxes I suspect)....I've always felt that MTs shifting @ 3.5k-4.5k can efficiently pull away from red lights plenty quick without WOT, while econo-ATs running on auto-pilot are ineffective and can't (giving them their well deserved poor reputation), having sacrificed performance for MPG...

I'll generally glide @ 2k-2500 rpm...but....

...if quick lane changing is needed on local streets and 2-lane highways, I run Kitacam in lower gears @ about 2500 rpms as I had with so many 4-sp gear boxes through the 70s and 80s (Bimmer 2002, Fiat Spider, Mitsu/Dodge Sapporo-Galant),...that gives me more gitup-n-go torque and just enough engine braking to keep me under the MPH limit....and just leave 5th in the bullpen until cruizin' at interstate speeds 65+mph (@ 2500-3k rpm again)....


I get razzed a lot from those who have never driven MT Camrys, but I get it why they wouldn't understand...what I wish for now is an MT hooked up to the V6 like Toyo did until this century...THAT would be SOMEthing.


That's the beauty of your manual trans. My car allows a near full manual override by selecting the Autostick mode, and my aftermarket tune makes it react very smartly. While our cars are not very similar it sounds like you enjoy yours just as much, which is what it is all about. I have fun in anything I drive...



The autostick mode is how I drive so I can control the rpm til I've achieved operating temp.
To be honest it's only missing the ability to dump the clutch and roast the tires but I turn off traction control with my tuner and a little fancy working of the brakes and those tires liquefy pretty quickly.

Kitacam

I drove a friends accord. It had a manual 5 speed and I will admit I was impressed by the ummmm, power I guess you could say that it has.
I'm sure your Camry would be similar based on them being in the same type of class.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. My vehicles are an appliance. I purchase them to get where I'm going and enjoy the ride. I refuse to drive a vehicle that doesn't get my heart pumping.
Whether it's my jacked up Chevy playing in the mud and on the trails or taking ricers money running a metered mile I want to enjoy the ride.
I'm still a mustang fan,I'll always be and at some point there's going to be a coyote in my garage,likely parked right next to a challenger to be honest.
I don't get the dodge hate. I've got no real hate for any auto brand. Sure there's models I don't care for and who says I've gotta buy one.
I will say this,right out of the box with no mods my charger was formidable and as much car as any guy would ever need. Once I removed the speed governor and tuned the engine I discovered what this car was truly capable of.
It's able to drive at speeds double the posted limits and cabin noise is nil,handling is devine and the ride smooth as silk.
Never in my wildest dreams would I have guessed just how capable this car is,and in the snow the traction control is amazing and with snow tires the only thing stopping it is ground clearance.
I've driven in blizzards and ice storms and this car handled like a dream. It carts my kids to scouts and hockey,with a DVD player and my kids don't wake up driving down these abortions we call roads,swallows the bumps an irregularities with ease.
So to all those with their dodge hate by all means please don't buy one,more for me.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
WOT? Best thing for a car. No extra wear and tear expected. Cars are built to go WOT...they have a limiter so no damage can possibly occur. I know a guy who is friends with a guys brother-in-law that drives his Pontiac Aztek at full throttle 80% of the time just commuting to work....then on the weekends he runs his car on the drag strip. I think he's got well over 250k miles now...and not a DROP of oil does it burn!

I guess my sarcasm was wasted.
 
To add substance to your statement I have never had problems with any cars going WOT. I can tell you I go WOT more than 99.99% of the driving population as I have never seen anyone do it as often as me. When I say 6-7 times a day sometimes its more like all the time.
 
This is going to be a very long post so if you are too lazy to read, the answer is NO, WOT is not bad, if you want to know why then grab some popcorn and disconnect the phone.

First I would like to make a distinction, because I don't know what are you talking about and it seems like everybody is talking about two different things like is the same.

1.- WOT - Wide open throttle, which simply is pressing the accelerator fully, and this doesn't have a direct relation to the speed of the engine; you can go at wide open throttle and at a constant speed, like in an uphill section of a highway.

2.- Redline - Or maximum rpm which is taking the rotational speed of the engine to the limit imposed by the manufacturer (for example 6000 rpm); and this also doesn't have a direct relation with the position of the accelerator or the butterfly valve; you can go at 6000 rpm and not even touch the accelerator pedal like when you brake with the engine.

These two conditions can be confused as one single event by many people especially if they have a useless automatic transmission, but I will leave the automatic transmission rant for another time.

Anyway the question is, are any of these two conditions bad for your engine???

Let's start with what is bad for your engine?? The answer is lack of lubrication. And how an engine is lubricated?? An engine uses fluid bearings for that and there are two types, hydrostatic and hydrodynamic.

Hydrostatic bearings rely on an external pump to move the fluid into the bearing, (like the main bearings, the connecting rod bearings and the camshaft bearings), think of this bearings as a hovercraft, here a large fan pumps air to keep the ground and the bottom of the hovercraft separated and thus reducing the friction between them.

Hydrodynamic bearings use the motion of the surfaces to force the fluid into the bearing (like piston rings, wrist pins, camshaft lobes and valve stems), think of them as a hydroplaning car in which the forward velocity of the car has wedged a film of water between the tires and the road reducing the friction and preventing contact between the two.

Now, how can these modes of lubrication fail?? And leave the engine unprotected

1 Too much load, like if you put too much cargo in your hovercraft and it can't take off. In the engine is the equivalent of too much pressure in the piston.

2. Not enough fluid, like the fan in the hovercraft is not spinning fast enough or there isn't too much rain to make the car aquaplane. In the engine is the equivalent of an undersized oil pump or the oil pump is not going fast enough.

3. Not enough velocity. Like if the car is traveling through a massive rain storm but is not going fast enough to hydroplane. In the engine the equivalent is a very slow rotational speed like less than 500 rpm.

Now to simplify the things more modes 2 and 3 are linked via the oil pump because the pump is connected to the crankshaft so the faster the engine is going the more oil is pumping through the engine. Think of this in our example of the aquaplaning car as the faster the car is going the more it rains in the road so this always ensures that the car is aquaplaning.

So now we only have two modes of failure: 1) too much load and 2) not enough oil.

Fortunately for you, your friendly neighborhood team of engineers took into account all this any many more variables to design your engine and they came up with specifications for the oil pump, bearings, piston rings and the oil that Is going to be used with that engine.

Now to answer our original question how can WOT or redlining our engine can produce these failures in lubrication???

Let's start with WOT. Since those dashing engineers took into account the maximum force applied into the piston and design the lubrication system with enough capacity to withstand this load we can safely say that you can go at wide open throttle through the whole rpm range and you are not going to have any problem with the engine. It's like our hovercraft has a maximum weight capacity of 3000 tons and you put 3000 tons of stuff in it, then of course that is going to fly without any problem.

Now redlining your engine, well, as I said before the faster the engine is going, the more lubrication it gets. So you can hit the redline as many times as you want and nothing will happen to the engine. But then you ask why I can't go beyond that maximum rotational speed?? We'll that is because the inertial forces (that arise because the piston needs to stop and then accelerate in the other direction and the stop again and so on) will increase in magnitude and frequency and that would lead to material fatigue and eventually a blown engine.

Now I can hear you all scream: yeah we already knew all that!! but the OP asked about a cold engine and short trips what about that????

The problem with the oil is that it increases it's viscosity when it cools down, so, how this affects the lubrication of the engine? well when the viscosity increases it takes more energy to pump the same amount of oil and that means that the pump needs to apply more pressure, to protect the pump from excessive pressure those brilliant engineers put a valve that opens when the pressure is high and part of the oil goes to the engine and another part goes back into the oil pan, so in that case the amount of oil circulating through the engine is less than the amount that our magnificent engineers deemed proper for that engine; so in our examples the hovercraft is dragging its bottom across the ground and the car is not hydroplaning and the wheels are making contact with the road, so in this case, yes, you have wear, and your engine will suffer for this condition. Once that the oil is hot and it's viscosity has decreased then this is no longer a problem. *(Some engines use this valve even when the oil is hot, but that will be covered in another post)

Now you probably are going to ask: at what temperature my oil is hot enough to avoid this terrible condition???

We'll you can know that only if you install an oil pressure gauge and an oil temperature gauge and noting at various oil temperatures from what engine speed the oil pressure remains constant, for example an engine that when hot produces 10 psi for every 1000 rpm so the oil pressure goes from 10 at idle to 60 psi at the rev limiter; but when is cold at idle the pressure is 20 psi and from 3000 rpm the pressure remains constant at 60 psi. Then I would recommend to you to not let the engine go beyond 3000 rpm until it gets warmer. There will be a temperature when the relief valve does not activate and from this temperature onwards the engine is properly lubricated and can go at WOT or redline.

Depending on the type of oil you use you will get different values for this temperature, for example, a single grade oil does not activate the relief valve from 85 °C, a multigrade oil from 70 °C and a synthetic oil from 65 °C so if you use synthetic oil you will cause less wear in the engine.

So I think this is enough for now, and if you read through all of this and you are still concious, CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You are a maniac about motor oil. Say it loud and say it proud.
 
^ Darwin 1138 - wow that took me a cup of coffee to read, now I have to go get another cup.

add - fresh cup... makes one think with a manual transmission, low rpm, then hit the throttle to WOT, the car/truck/motorcycle bogs down, bucks because the low rpm and gearing ratio at WOT is against the odds of wanting to get going on demand.
 
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Originally Posted By: Darwin1138

Hydrostatic bearings rely on an external pump to move the fluid into the bearing, (like the main bearings, the connecting rod bearings and the camshaft bearings), think of this bearings as a hovercraft, here a large fan pumps air to keep the ground and the bottom of the hovercraft separated and thus reducing the friction between them.


This analogy is false because the pressure at which the oil pump pumps in the oil is not what keeps things apart. Oil pump is simply replacing the oil that leaks out of the bearings due to forces pressing agains the oil film.

Think of it as two pieces of glass with a bit of water between them. They will glide nice and smooth against each other, with no external pump needed. Water's inability to compress is what keeps the two pieces apart and sliding with little friction. But with pressure against the glass and a sliding motion, the water will leak out the sides and eventually the two pieces will be grinding against each other. That's where a pump is needed. Not to provide the pressure to keep the pieces apart, but to provide adequate flow to replace the lost water.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
This analogy is false because the pressure at which the oil pump pumps in the oil is not what keeps things apart. Oil pump is simply replacing the oil that leaks out of the bearings due to forces pressing agains the oil film.

Think of it as two pieces of glass with a bit of water between them............


What I was trying to achieve with that analogy was to stand out that the most important part of the bearing is the oil pump and the flow of oil it generates; the two processes are different (fluid properties, geometry, velocities, forces, etc) but the thing they have in common is the need for an external flow of fluid to properly function.
 
All the same....driving WOT to me equals added wear. Call it common sense or maybe ignorance, but that is how I see it. I've never driven any of my vehicles WOT unless a safety issue calls for it. I've known plenty of people that drive like that and the vehicles they do it in are often worn out prematurely. Did they do regular oil changes? Yes. I see WOT as unnecessary, wasteful, sometimes dangerous, and yes....hard on a passenger car engine.
Just my opinion.
 
LOL I don't know and don't care. I've routinely redlined all of my cars (many times a day, including going out on the racetrack) and they've given me many years of trouble-free service.

To be fair, all of my cars have been performance cars that are built to take that kind of abuse.
 
Shouldn't we change "WOT" to "bouncing off the rev limiter" because you can WOT for a short period of time, and the revs never even approach the fuel cutoff.

Lower rev means less wear since the motor is trying to self detonate less.
 
For me, WOT is a part of my GTI's daily maintenance schedule.

In the Camry I'm not so much worried about the engine being run at high RPMs as I am the gearbox holding together after years of hard shifts.
 
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