How bad are these VR6 Passat GDI intake valves?

[jsean]

Not good. Plus try cleaning the maf with cleaner as a dirty one can cause issues. That looks super caked on. Maybe one of the intake cleaning kits to start.

Good point about the MAF cleaner, that’s a low hanging fruit. Any suggestions on intake cleaning kits? The local dealer and the euro shops push for the BG fuel induction kit. Is that one to try or are there better alternates you’d recommend?
Looks like I can buy the setup online for about $150-200 and give it a shot with my air compressor.

 

[dbias]

Sounds like the oil consumption battle is going your way. At that age and mileage you might look at the engine mounts because as the wear the allow more NVH into the cabin that normally would be absorbed giving the feeling of rough running when it may be a dampening issue.
When I had my transmissionit connect with the 2.0 engine it began “running rough” to the point of jiggling the coins in my ashtray. I thought for sure I had misfires but the scan tool said everything was fine. Replaced all three engine/transmission mounts and it felt like a new vehicle.

 

[jsean]

I went out and did an overnight cold start for you, but understand we live in Cali and the garage thermometer said 64 degrees. Regardless, the last time the VR6 was driven was 6 days ago, so it was thoroughly cooled off.

Car fired in 2 seconds and dropped to "hot idle" in 23 seconds. During fast idle I would say it's not perfectly smooth. IMO the VR6 has an edginess to it. We have a pair of 6 cylinder BMWs and those are smooth as silk, hot or cold. In comparison the VR6 seems to be a bit of a ruffian - but that's one of the things I like about it.

Let me add too, our VR6 has never used any oil at all. 5K mile OCIs from new with a lifetime of Euro Castrol 0W-40. It's not a short tripped car. Sue and I bought it for our road trips so as a consequence it sits for several weeks at a time.

Scott

This is a very helpful data point, thanks. My comparison points are a Mercedes M272 and Saab B284 - both of which are not as smooth as the BMW straight 6 (using N52 as a data point that my buddy has) are much smoother upon cold start compared to the VR6. Very rowdy engine but fun as you said. This car had a lifetime of Castrol 5w40 at the same shop most of its life but 10k OCIs and was mostly short tripped. The PO was an octogenarian and I doubt he ever gave this Passat an Italian tuneup. Telling with how much oil it was burning.

 

[jsean]

Sounds like the oil consumption battle is going your way. At that age and mileage you might look at the engine mounts because as the wear the allow more NVH into the cabin that normally would be absorbed giving the feeling of rough running when it may be a dampening issue.
When I had my transmissionit connect with the 2.0 engine it began “running rough” to the point of jiggling the coins in my ashtray. I thought for sure I had misfires but the scan tool said everything was fine. Replaced all three engine/transmission mounts and it felt like a new vehicle.

Funny you mention mounts. Just curious, did you have abnormally high vibrations at cold start as well?

I changed out the DSG mount a month ago while doing the control arms with OE ones. I figured they were original and off for the job, might as well throw new ones on.
I don’t feel any difference in vibration at a stop light with the transmissionmission in neutral or drive. So I figure that mount is still good. I’ll take a look at the engine mount on the other side to verify if that’s worn and causing me issues.

 

[dbias]

Funny you mention mounts. Just curious, did you have abnormally high vibrations at cold start as well?

I changed out the DSG mount a month ago while doing the control arms with OE ones. I figured they were original and off for the job, might as well throw new ones on.
I don’t feel any difference in vibration at a stop light with the transmission in neutral or drive. So I figure that mount is still good. I’ll take a look at the engine mount on the other side to verify if that’s worn and causing me issues.

Yes the 2.0 Duratec literally shook the change in the center console while warming up and it lessened considerably once warm. The new mounts totally cured it. It was a good little engine and I took it to 220k with just the mounts, a water pump and valve cover gasket. Never used oil at all.

Still see it from time to time after selling it to a commercial landscaper. He said he needed it to transport trees and shrubs so the wouldn’t get wind burnt while transporting them.

 

[slo town]

This is a very helpful data point, thanks. My comparison points are a Mercedes M272 and Saab B284 - both of which are not as smooth as the BMW straight 6 (using N52 as a data point that my buddy has) are much smoother upon cold start compared to the VR6. Very rowdy engine but fun as you said. This car had a lifetime of Castrol 5w40 at the same shop most of its life but 10k OCIs and was mostly short tripped. The PO was an octogenarian and I doubt he ever gave this Passat an Italian tuneup. Telling with how much oil it was burning.

Yeah, one of my BMW datapoints is our N51 powered 2011 328i M-Sport. The other is my M54 powered 2003 330Ci ZSP. Both are super smooth hot or cold.

IMO, the biggest thing you're working against is the PO short tripping the car and doing 10K OCIs. I'm not sure about your 2013 Passat, but ours has an oil temp display that you can select. Even on a warm California day it takes 8 or 9 miles of 65 mph highway driving for the oil to reach a stable operating temp of, say, 205-208. If your car had a life of 3 or 4 mile, cold start short trips that saw the oil only hit 130 or 140...

Scott

 

[shortyb]

Thanks for the response. The PCV diaphragm was intact in Oct/Nov last year when I did the piston soak. I’m not opposed to changing out the diaphragm (looks like RKX makes just the diaphragm kit without having to change the whole valve cover) and I might do that later this summer anyways as a PM item.

I had not considered the ECT (didn’t realize they were called G62 on the VWs - this is our first VW and GDI vehicle, so thanks for that). Ime, ECTs caused problems with warm startups. But again I’ll look at how much a new G62 sensor and see if I can get to it without too much hassle and change it out.

I figured the walnut blasting was the best course of action. I’ll try and take the spark plugs out sometime this week and stick the scope in there again to see if I can take a quick peek at any of the valves for comparison of current vs. Oct/Nov photos I posted on here.

Do you have serious vacuum when you try to remove the oil fill cap? If not, PCV is probably still ok. The RKX kit is a great alternative to replacing the entire cover. ~$25 for the membrane kit and it's Viton, so way more durable than the OEM piece. I've replaced just ripped diaphragms with RKX ones in lieu of entire breather valves and extended their life considerably. Only pain on the VR6 is you have to take off the valve cover to get to the PCV.

There are usually at least 2 coolant sensors on the 4-cylinders, one on/around the water pump, the other a raditor hose connection. The WP one controls temp signal to the ECU, while the one on the radiator controls the fans. I believe the VR6 only has the one on a radiator hose connection and idle kick down, I believe, is handled by the O2 sensor feedback to the ECU. Not entirely sure. That is also another area to check if you really concerned about the idle, the O2 sensor output. When these things get old, they start to get glitchy, especially if they are oil burners. Same goes for the MAF. Check your voltage readings (harder to do on the 5 pin ones) and see if they're in spec. Any wonky STFT/LTFT readings?

Good call on doing timing chains soon. Those 10K OCIs, especially short trippers, are murder on the chains. Have you been able to measure chain stretch yet?

 

[jsean]

Yeah, one of my BMW datapoints is our N51 powered 2011 328i M-Sport. The other is my M54 powered 2003 330Ci ZSP. Both are super smooth hot or cold.

IMO, the biggest thing you're working against is the PO short tripping the car and doing 10K OCIs. I'm not sure about your 2013 Passat, but ours has an oil temp display that you can select. Even on a warm California day it takes 8 or 9 miles of 65 mph highway driving for the oil to reach a stable operating temp of, say, 205-208. If your car had a life of 3 or 4 mile, cold start short trips that saw the oil only hit 130 or 140...

Scott

Same here, I got the oil temp display and I’m very very gentle till the oil temps gets to 190F.
I think you’re right on the low oil temps. During this last winter (the first one I had with this car), I’d barely hit 130F in about 3 miles. That’s the first leg of my commute before the freeway so I tend to monitor that almost daily

The other thought I have is if I had bad IVD, it should be down on power and give poor gas mileage. I’ve been tracking every fill since I got it last year and my fuel mileage has stayed about consistent. Certainly not down on power afaik, still pulls very strong in sport mode at all speeds.

 

[slo town]

Same here, I got the oil temp display and I’m very very gentle till the oil temps gets to 190F.
I think you’re right on the low oil temps. During this last winter (the first one I had with this car), I’d barely hit 130F in about 3 miles. That’s the first leg of my commute before the freeway so I tend to monitor that almost daily

The other thought I have is if I had bad IVD, it should be down on power and give poor gas mileage. I’ve been tracking every fill since I got it last year and my fuel mileage has stayed about consistent. Certainly not down on power afaik, still pulls very strong in sport mode at all speeds.

Good man. Your engine already loves you!

Just a thought. Given the car and mileage, let's just say they aren't collectable... If it were my car I'd run Restore and Protect 5W-30 for five or six 2K OCIs. Yes, I know that oil wouldn't satisfy the HTHS requirements - but - I suspect the oil would protect better than 8K mile old 5W-40 that had be short tripped it's entire OCI.

Also too, and this is the part that costs money, but it'd probably be a good idea to replace the PCV because they seem to have a problematic design. As far as the IVD cleanup, I'd try Valvoline Restore and Protect and do the PCV and see how it runs. The car is new to you. Put some miles on it before you dump $$$$ for the IVD cleanup on it.

Good on you for R&R'ing the transmission oil too. I did ours at 40K and I used OEM fluid. It's pricey stuff.

Scott

 

[97prizm]

Good point about the MAF cleaner, that’s a low hanging fruit. Any suggestions on intake cleaning kits? The local dealer and the euro shops push for the BG fuel induction kit. Is that one to try or are there better alternates you’d recommend?
Looks like I can buy the setup online for about $150-200 and give it a shot with my air compressor.

According to Google
"

• Top Pick: CRC GDI IVD® Intake Valve & Turbo Cleaner
  • Why: Specifically formulated to dissolve stubborn carbon buildup on Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) valves without requiring manual media blasting.
• Top Pick: Berryman 2611 Intake Valve and Combustion Chamber Cleaner Kit
  • Why: Professional-grade PEA-based cleaner that comes with its own application hose/tool for an easy, one-person DIY application."
  • One says pea the other says specifically formulated.

 

[jsean]

Yes the 2.0 Duratec literally shook the change in the center console while warming up and it lessened considerably once warm. The new mounts totally cured it. It was a good little engine and I took it to 220k with just the mounts, a water pump and valve cover gasket. Never used oil at all.

Still see it from time to time after selling it to a commercial landscaper. He said he needed it to transport trees and shrubs so the wouldn’t get wind burnt while transporting them.

Good to know. I’ll inspect the RH engine mount, I believe that’s original to the car and I did have to swing the engine forward while doing the control arms. So maybe that’s exacerbating the vibrations I’m feeling during cold/high idle.

 

[jsean]

Do you have serious vacuum when you try to remove the oil fill cap? If not, PCV is probably still ok. The RKX kit is a great alternative to replacing the entire cover. ~$25 for the membrane kit and it's Viton, so way more durable than the OEM piece. I've replaced just ripped diaphragms with RKX ones in lieu of entire breather valves and extended their life considerably. Only pain on the VR6 is you have to take off the valve cover to get to the PCV.

There are usually at least 2 coolant sensors on the 4-cylinders, one on/around the water pump, the other a raditor hose connection. The WP one controls temp signal to the ECU, while the one on the radiator controls the fans. I believe the VR6 only has the one on a radiator hose connection and idle kick down, I believe, is handled by the O2 sensor feedback to the ECU. Not entirely sure. That is also another area to check if you really concerned about the idle, the O2 sensor output. When these things get old, they start to get glitchy, especially if they are oil burners. Same goes for the MAF. Check your voltage readings (harder to do on the 5 pin ones) and see if they're in spec. Any wonky STFT/LTFT readings?

Good call on doing timing chains soon. Those 10K OCIs, especially short trippers, are murder on the chains. Have you been able to measure chain stretch yet?

I’ve been randomly using the vacuum check since I did the piston soak. I can’t tell any difference in the amount of vacuum upon lifting the oil filler cap and plugging the little port on the valve cover right next to the PCV diaphragm. The amount of suction is minimal at the cap and hasn’t changed. I’ve also taken off the brake booster hose at the vacuum pump and blown into it to check for any difference. I’ve only done this 3 times (last Oct, Mar and last week) - no difference here either. The RKX diaphragm is cheap and isn’t too hard to replace. I’m ok with changing it out and seeing if that helps any at all. Just weird that a possibly faulty PCV would cause this symptom during the first 30 seconds high idle only.

The O2 sensors shouldn’t be too hard to monitor. I think my cheapo Autel does it and so does the Bluedriver. I’ll take a look this week and verify.

About the timing chain stretch, funny enough I ordered VCDS this morning so I can monitor how far they’re stretched / how long I got before spending the $s.

 

[jsean]

Good man. Your engine already loves you!

Just a thought. Given the car and mileage, let's just say they aren't collectable... If it were my car I'd run Restore and Protect 5W-30 for five or six 2K OCIs. Yes, I know that oil wouldn't satisfy the HTHS requirements - but - I suspect the oil would protect better than 8K mile old 5W-40 that had be short tripped it's entire OCI.

Also too, and this is the part that costs money, but it'd probably be a good idea to replace the PCV because they seem to have a problematic design. As far as the IVD cleanup, I'd try Valvoline Restore and Protect and do the PCV and see how it runs. The car is new to you. Put some miles on it before you dump $$$$ for the IVD cleanup on it.

Good on you for R&R'ing the transmission oil too. I did ours at 40K and I used OEM fluid. It's pricey stuff.

Scott

Thanks, I’m trying to make amends for the previous owner’s driving and maintenance habits (octogenarian who’s no more unfortunately).
I was planning on running Valvoline Restore and Protect 5w30 for at least 2 more OCIs (4 total). The last OCI ended up being longer than planned because we took a trip across the country. The UOA came out really great compared to the shop’s Castrol 5W40.
You’re right in that this is a new car to me and I’m hesitant to spend a bunch of money at a euro shop only for something else to go (timing chains is what I’m concerned about primarily).
At this point, I would really like prolong expenses until I need the timing chain. Most of the other PMs have been done and it’s been a great commuter and travel car for us.
I might even run a can or two of the CRC intake cleaner just to give it a shot. Worst case, it’s ~$40 but at least I tried.

I called the dealer for the DSG fluid and yikes it’s expensive. I ended up using the liqui moly kit from FCP and got the fill adapter from Amazon. Got the job done at a reasonable cost.

 

[jsean]

According to Google
"

• Top Pick: CRC GDI IVD® Intake Valve & Turbo Cleaner
  • Why: Specifically formulated to dissolve stubborn carbon buildup on Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) valves without requiring manual media blasting.
• Top Pick: Berryman 2611 Intake Valve and Combustion Chamber Cleaner Kit
  • Why: Professional-grade PEA-based cleaner that comes with its own application hose/tool for an easy, one-person DIY application."
  • One says pea the other says specifically formulated.

Thanks for the list. I think I can get the CRC at the local auto parts store. I might go down that route - run a can, commute a day or two, run the 2nd can and then drive for the rest of the week and pull the plugs and inspect any of the intake valves that might be visible to see how they look.

 

[slo town]

Post a picture of your Passat. Isn’t the rear seat legroom UNREAL? It’s like a limousine back there.

Scott

 

[shortyb]

I’ve been randomly using the vacuum check since I did the piston soak. I can’t tell any difference in the amount of vacuum upon lifting the oil filler cap and plugging the little port on the valve cover right next to the PCV diaphragm. The amount of suction is minimal at the cap and hasn’t changed. I’ve also taken off the brake booster hose at the vacuum pump and blown into it to check for any difference. I’ve only done this 3 times (last Oct, Mar and last week) - no difference here either. The RKX diaphragm is cheap and isn’t too hard to replace. I’m ok with changing it out and seeing if that helps any at all

PCV/breather is probably fine then.

Just weird that a possibly faulty PCV would cause this symptom during the first 30 seconds high idle only.

It's a VW . Didn't think a coolant temp sensor could do that either.

About the timing chain stretch, funny enough I ordered VCDS this morning so I can monitor how far they’re stretched / how long I got before spending the $s.

Anything over +/- 5° on phase adaptation and you should think about booking an appt. Unless you want the valves to become intimately acquainted with the pistons .

All in all, I think it's the low tension ring issue letting too much oil into the CC and the breather system, along with the 10K OCIs/short tripping, that is the root cause of the consumption and IVD. As long as it runs fine, minus the 30 second warm-up, (and I don't think even that sounds bad from the videos), then continue on the ring-freeing/clean-up quest. But don't stress it too much, just enjoy the car. Heck, if you wanted a low stress car, it's NOT gonna be a VW . They are not boring though, they will ALWAYS give you something to work on.

 

[jsean]

Post a picture of your Passat. Isn’t the rear seat legroom UNREAL? It’s like a limousine back there.

Scott

Here it is. Turns out I don’t take a lot of pictures of my cars
The rear legroom is amazing. So much space even with rear facing baby seats we have (just 1 during this picture).

I wish I could’ve found a different color than the Candy white but oh well. This has the dinámica inserts which are nice but a real pain to keep clean.

 

[slo town]

Here it is. Turns out I don’t take a lot of pictures of my cars
The rear legroom is amazing. So much space even with rear facing baby seats we have (just 1 during this picture).

I wish I could’ve found a different color than the Candy white but oh well. This has the dinámica inserts which are nice but a real pain to keep clean.

View attachment 340581

View attachment 340582

View attachment 340583

That's super clean! Very nice!

Scott

 

[jsean]

PCV/breather is probably fine then.


It's a VW . Didn't think a coolant temp sensor could do that either.


Anything over +/- 5° on phase adaptation and you should think about booking an appt. Unless you want the valves to become intimately acquainted with the pistons .

All in all, I think it's the low tension ring issue letting too much oil into the CC and the breather system, along with the 10K OCIs/short tripping, that is the root cause of the consumption and IVD. As long as it runs fine, minus the 30 second warm-up, (and I don't think even that sounds bad from the videos), then continue on the ring-freeing/clean-up quest. But don't stress it too much, just enjoy the car. Heck, if you wanted a low stress car, it's NOT gonna be a VW . They are not boring though, they will ALWAYS give you something to work on.

That’s true. It’s a VW thing supposedly. But we like it for what it is. Liked it enough to buy a 2nd Passat for the wife (2.0 DDSB, no VR6 unfortunately), in white too!

I’m thinking the PCV is fine too. There isn’t enough data saying the diaphragm has failed yet.

I was going to ask what’s the max limits - thank you for that. I’m all for keeping the valves and pistons very much away from each other

Hasn’t had a hiccup outside the first 30 seconds vibrations during high idle. It’s a fun commuter and you’re right, I should just enjoy it more

 

[jsean]

That's super clean! Very nice!

Scott

Thanks Scott! She does present well! There are a few pain chips that I’ll address with a paint pen, but really very minimal rust being a 13y.o Mid West car.