how are port threads on the filtered side sealed

[Hohn]

BTW ... the dP across diesel fuel filters is in the 30-60 PSI range. Not the 5-20 PSI dP range an oil filter could see.

Terminal restriction is the highest possible dP an element can have while in service. It is considered "plugged" beyond that.

Terminal restriction for nanonet second stage filters on Cummins industrial engines is 300kPa.
Terminal restriction for the first stage industrial Pro (FH239) Davco/Fleetguard elements is 27kPa.

Note: most systems will experience as system limit long before an individual filter sees its component limit (terminal value). Typically, it's a fault code threshold or engine derate before the filter itself is "plugged."

I can't speak to other Cummins products <19L or other brands of diesel engines, but I know the larger engines quite well.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Terminal restriction is the highest possible dP an element can have while in service. It is considered "plugged" beyond that.

Terminal restriction for nanonet second stage filters on Cummins industrial engines is 300kPa.
Terminal restriction for the first stage industrial Pro (FH239) Davco/Fleetguard elements is 27kPa.

Note: most systems will experience as system limit long before an individual filter sees its component limit (terminal value). Typically, it's a fault code threshold or engine derate before the filter itself is "plugged."

I can't speak to other Cummins products <19L or other brands of diesel engines; I'm not paid to engineer those.

The other aspect is that diesel fuel filters do not bypass fuel if the dP gets too high. So for a worse case dP situation, I can see why there's a way to seal the threads, along with the sensitive to debris injector factor.

 

[Hohn]

The other aspect is that diesel fuel filters do not bypass fuel if the dP gets too high. So for a worse case dP situation, I can see why there's a way to seal the threads, along with the sensitive to debris injector factor.

Correct. There is a bypass provision to account for filter plugging, but it's not within the filters. It is typically at the low pressure pump outlet, and would be considered a "pressure relief".

 

[johnmyster]

So what's your point. Any leak that is super minuscule to the total flow it's leaking into is insignificant in the case of an ICE oiling system. Would you be concerned if your oil filter was leaking 0.001% past the media (or the threads)? How about 10-15%.

So now it's flow again?

 

[johnmyster]

The other aspect is that diesel fuel filters do not bypass fuel if the dP gets too high. So for a worse case dP situation, I can see why there's a way to seal the threads, along with the sensitive to debris injector factor.

But the total pressure is regulated in some form. In my prior application the lift pump was regulated to 12 psi. A complete filter plug on the primary was limited to 14.7 psi on the primary (complete vacuum), pump dead head output on #2 (which wasn't much, maybe 40 -50 psi, due to pump slip) and 12 psi on filter #3. (My current truck is not that much different, but I haven't dead head tested the pump. I don't have to because the truck would quit on a low side fuel pressure fault.)

The BF1212 filter I referenced is usually used as a suction (primary) filter, so at most 14.7 psi across the threads...and they want you to squish an o-ring between the top plate and filter head.

And if a complete filter plug happens, the situation doesn't exist long. The vehicle fuel starved long before that happened and you'd replaced the daggum filters to get it running again. So it's an invalid hypothetical, whereas lube filter bypass (according to some on this forum) happens on a regular basis during normal operation.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So now it's flow again?

It's always been flow ... flow that's filtered and flow that's not. What's your point?

 

[ZeeOSix]

And if a complete filter plug happens, the situation doesn't exist long. The vehicle fuel starved long before that happened and you'd replaced the daggum filters to get it running again. So it's an invalid hypothetical, whereas lube filter bypass (according to some on this forum) happens on a regular basis during normal operation.

What's an invalid hypothetical? My point was a diesel fuel filter does not bypass inside the filter and allow dirty fuel to contaminate the injector system - why would it be designed like that. So that means it's possible that the dP across the fuel filter could be high enough in some situational to warrant a thread sealing method, along with all the other reasons mentioned to keep any small leakage under control. You trying to equate the need for a thread seal on an ICE oiling system oil filter to a diesel engine fuel filter is not equivalent. An oil filter going into bypass doesn't happen as often as most may think, and it has nothing to do with the mounting thread discussion either.

 

[johnmyster]

What's an invalid hypothetical? My point was a diesel fuel filter does not bypass inside the filter and allow dirty fuel to contaminate the injector system - why would it be designed like that. So that means it's possible that the dP across the fuel filter could be high enough in some situational to warrant a thread sealing method, along with all the other reasons mentioned to keep any small leakage under control. You trying to equate the need for a thread seal on an ICE oiling system oil filter to a diesel engine fuel filter is not equivalent. An oil filter going into bypass doesn't happen as often as most may think, and it has nothing to do with the mounting thread discussion either.

It's an invalid hypothetical because in your postulated plugged fuel filter deadhead max pressure against a pump, the engine isn't running. Ergo, the consequence isn't realized. DP across filter gets high enough, flow is choked, truck doesn't run right, situation gets resolved. So by definition the condition doesn't occur. In your 'open bypass' lube filter scenario, the engine is actually running. Ergo, the situation can and does exist. Normal operation. Ergo, actual operation.

1) The leaky nipple flow isn't so small as to entirely matter, because other identical systems make an attempt to seal it. Or do we backtrack to the susceptibility argument again?
2) The sealing method isn't because of high dp in wildly off-normal (and not possible) conditions. It's due to normal operating conditions of a few psi of a working fluid that is only 2-3 (not an order of magnitude) less viscous than lube oil at operating temperature.
3) Dimensionally, the systems are equivalent.

I never said there was corrective need for a lube oil system. Things can be non negligible and still factored into normal operation. I just stand against your (very typical) handwaving stance of "not a thing, irrelevant, doesn't happen, doesn't matter, too small to matter, the experts have spoken" using subjective words.

Filter tubes don’t have o-ring’s or gaskets. How are the threads sealed from the perimeter?

To the OP, yes, some spin-on filters do make an attempt to seal the leaky nipple interface, despite some forum experts blowing you off from the gun.

One could hypothesize that this might be one benefit (even if not the primary) and reason why we see more and more cartridge filters...but that would be controversial amongst the experts.

Haha, leaky nipples.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It's an invalid hypothetical because in your postulated plugged fuel filter deadhead max pressure against a pump, the engine isn't running. Ergo, the consequence isn't realized. DP across filter gets high enough, flow is choked, truck doesn't run right, situation gets resolved. So by definition the condition doesn't occur. In your 'open bypass' lube filter scenario, the engine is actually running. Ergo, the situation can and does exist. Normal operation. Ergo, actual operation.

1) The leaky nipple flow isn't so small as to entirely matter, because other identical systems make an attempt to seal it. Or do we backtrack to the susceptibility argument again?
2) The sealing method isn't because of high dp in wildly off-normal (and not possible) conditions. It's due to normal operating conditions of a few psi of a working fluid that is only 2-3 (not an order of magnitude) less viscous than lube oil at operating temperature.
3) Dimensionally, the systems are equivalent.

If the dP is enough to deadhead the flow and cause the engine to shut-off, then there was a period of higher than normal dP. Even if it's a short period, leaking threads with low viscosity fuel in that case could send more debris down stream. But again, the main reason diesel fuel filters try to seal the thread leakage is due to the sensitivity to contamination of the injector system. So even if the dP is relatively low, the goal is to prevent any contamination of the injector system. A 0.002% or even a 0.02% thread leak on an ICE oil filter isn't going to matter, regardless of what impact that same leak might have on a fuel injection system - apples and oranges.

I never said there was corrective need for a lube oil system. Things can be non negligible and still factored into normal operation. I just stand against your (very typical) handwaving stance of "not a thing, irrelevant, doesn't happen, doesn't matter, too small to matter, the experts have spoken" using subjective words.

Then what's the big debate about. If you think there's no need to correct any thread leakage on an engine oil filter then you here just to try and troll? I did my leak factor estimate into the normal operation of an oil filter. Where's your analysis, instead of making accusations you can't backup. The numbers say it's totally insignificant. If you think otherwise, then prove it with some analysis or testing. Worry more about torn filter media and/or leaky metal-to-metal leaf spring seals on the end cap.

To the OP, yes, some spin-on filters do make an attempt to seal the leaky nipple interface, despite some forum experts blowing you off from the gun.

One could hypothesize that this might be one benefit (even if not the primary) and reason why we see more and more cartridge filters...but that would be controversial amongst the experts.

Haha, leaky nipples.

Show us some ICE spin-on filters that use an O-ring on the thread mount. Guess everyone failed to see the included O-ring in the bottom of oil filter box, lol. And the way cartridge filter elements are designed, some don't look like they would seal very well when installed. Give you one guess for another reason why an O-ring isn't included with every ICE spin-on oil filter. Think of what would have to happen if that was the case.

 

[johnmyster]

If the dP is enough to deadhead the flow and cause the engine to shut-off, then there was a period of higher than normal dP. Even if it's a short period, leaking threads with low viscosity fuel in that case could send more debris down stream. But again, the main reason diesel fuel filters try to seal the thread leakage is due to the sensitivity to contamination of the injector system. So even if the dP is relatively low, the goal is to prevent any contamination of the injector system. A 0.002% or even a 0.02% thread leak on an ICE oil filter isn't going to matter, regardless of what impact that same leak might have on a fuel injection system - apples and oranges.


Then what's the big debate about. If you think there's no need to correct any thread leakage on an engine oil filter then you here just to try and troll? I did my leak factor estimate into the normal operation of an oil filter. Where's your analysis, instead of making accusations you can't backup. The numbers say it's totally insignificant. If you think otherwise, then prove it with some analysis or testing. Worry more about torn filter media and/or leaky metal-to-metal leaf spring seals on the end cap.


Show us some ICE spin-on filters that use an O-ring on the thread mount. Guess everyone failed to see the included O-ring in the bottom of oil filter box, lol. And the way cartridge filter elements are designed, some don't look like they would seal very well when installed. Give you one guess for another reason why an O-ring isn't included with every ICE spin-on oil filter. Think of what would have to happen if that was the case.

The difference between troll and expert is post count, right?

 

[ZeeOSix]

The difference between troll and expert is post count, right?

You have nothing to backup any of your claims on the thread leakage, therefore you're really the troller. At least give some kind of valid calculation to counter mine. How much volume do you really think an oil filter leaks at the threads with 11 cSt oil with a dP of 16 PSI (more than an average filter sees in most use cases). With thicker oil and less dP it's even less leakage. It was that way in the PD pump slip discussions too. You think all these PD pumps are slipping like they have 5 million miles on them and on their last leg. Disable the PD pump's pressure relief system and see how much they slip before the equipment downstream is way over pressurized and fails at some point, lol.

 

[johnmyster]

You have nothing to backup any of your claims on the thread leakage, therefore you're really the troller. At least give some kind of valid calculation to counter mine. How much volume do you really think an oil filter leaks at the threads with 11 cSt oil with a dP of 16 PSI (more than an average filter sees in most use cases). With thicker oil and less dP it's even less leakage. It was that way in the PD pump slip discussions too. You think all these PD pumps are slipping like they have 5 million miles on them and on their last leg. Disable the PD pump's pressure relief system and see how much they slip before the equipment downstream is way over pressurized and fails at some point, lol.

Why do spin on filter manufacturers include washers/o-rings for fuel/hydraulic filters if leakage doesn't happen? Good feels?

"Healthy" oil filters.

How do you propose DP is less for the oil filters than fuel filters? Lube oil flow is certainly dynamic and higher than 60-100 gph, viscosity is higher. Here we go again making up assumptions behind postulated comparisons to support a baseless claim. GIGO. So easy to spot holes in the comparative argument of the high post count 'expert.'

 

[johnmyster]

At least give some kind of valid calculation to counter mine. How much volume do you really think an oil filter leaks at the threads with 11 cSt oil with a dP of 16 PSI (more than an average filter sees in most use cases). With thicker oil and less dP it's even less leakage.

Donaldson P553203 - a rather common 3 micron 99% rated filter with water separation capacity. Typically used as a secondary. I used them. Curve G.

Looks like 0.25 psi at 80 gph. And for some reason, 0.25 psi, and rubber o-ring included. 1"-14 unc threads.

So 0.25 psi, and generally constant flow. (Low pressure fuel pumps drive into a regulator.) So no, not higher dp than across a lube oil filter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Why do spin on filter manufacturers include washers/o-rings for fuel/hydraulic filters if leakage doesn't happen? Good feels?

I never said it' "doesn't happen". I said it's minuscule and insignificant on an ICE spin-on. Read much?

"Healthy" oil filters.

It's healthy PD pumps, not filters, lol. Although, one could claim that a filter with a big media tear or lots of leaf spring leakage isn't "healthy".

How do you propose DP is less for the oil filters than fuel filters? Lube oil flow is certainly dynamic and higher than 60-100 gph, viscosity is higher. Here we go again making up assumptions behind postulated comparisons to support a baseless claim. GIGO. So easy to spot holes in the comparative argument of the high post count 'expert.'

So you really think 0.002% volume leakage on a full flow ICE spin-on filter is worth worrying about? Like said, no matter what the dP is across a diesel spin-on fuel filter, the fact is they want to seal the threads because the fuel injectors are sensitive to debris. Same goes for a hydraulic system with components sensitive to debris. The ISO cleanliness code requirement for most hydraulic systems is pretty low (meaning it needs to be very clean). It's not hard to understand, but you just seem to disregard this fact. It can matter on a diesel fuel filter or hydraulic system filter, it doesn't really matter on an ICE spin-on filter for obvious reasons. You just being obtuse, or really can't gasps this difference?

Where's your mathematical analysis of a spiral leak path on a spin-on filter? Stop blowing smoke and do something, even if it's just a logical estimate, to show that it's some huge leak going on past the threads instead of just trolling this discussion.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Donaldson P553203 - a rather common 3 micron 99% rated filter with water separation capacity. Typically used as a secondary. I used them. Curve G.

Looks like 0.25 psi at 80 gph. And for some reason, 0.25 psi, and rubber o-ring included. 1"-14 unc threads.

So 0.25 psi, and generally constant flow. (Low pressure fuel pumps drive into a regulator.) So no, not higher dp than across a lube oil filter.

Like I said in the post above this one, regardless what the dP level is they want to seal the threads because of the debris sensitivity of the injectors. Is that really too hard to grasp? You put Teflon tape on your spin-on filter spud yet?

 

[johnmyster]

Like I said in the post above this one, regardless what the dP level is they want to seal the threads because of the debris sensitivity of the injectors. Is that really too hard to grasp? You put Teflon tape on your spin-on filter spud yet?

First you said it was flow. Now it’s only relevant because of sensitivity. But now it’s flow. But now it’s sensitivity.

First you said it was because fuel filters were high dp. Now looks like they’re low dp.

Then it was because fuel only passes one time. Now looks like it recirculates.

Analysis (aka hand waving) doesn’t matter if the inputs are garbage. GIGO. High post count experts.

 

[Astro14]

That’s enough.