How about a forum for Spark Plugs ?
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Really? Wow!
My old mopars don't seem to mind digesting a big piece of ceramic center insulator with out a scratch.
My 94GC now has ~220K now, the 00GC in over 90K, my turbo Caravan just turned over 205K. All run great.
My old mopars don't seem to mind digesting a big piece of ceramic center insulator with out a scratch.
My 94GC now has ~220K now, the 00GC in over 90K, my turbo Caravan just turned over 205K. All run great.
Hey Rob ,
Without a doubt ( having compared too much to list and ignoring high end /some boutique/other euro ) if I had that engine I'd be running the Bosch Platinum +4 or the BOSCH FUSION ( iridium/modified side electrode tip(s) ) -esp when price , longevity , and the ability to function under /out of tune/adverse / lightly modified ( street ) conditions is considered .
Some of the information here and anywhere else on spark plugs is shall we say " over determined " , over generalised ,flat out wrong , or situationally dependent - without full qualification .
I guess one of say 10-20 the things you might find relevant to this application is that part of why the NGK/Nippondenso campaign that exists against Bosch PLAT+4s ( I have copies of some " interesting " paperwork in AZ along with 20-30 tsbs from just about every single Japanese HQed OEM sourced manufacturer - not talking about any ones personal exp. here ) is that Bosch had thru manufacturing patents locked up the low cost technology for a Plat - 4 sided electrode market . When the Plat +4 came out it virtually put every other low - medium cost plug manufacturer on the ground .
It also adversely effected both Dealership and aftermarket sales of virtually every Asian car make .
The only truly similiar technology ( many multiple electrode ) that has come along since that was/is competitive on a cost/benefit basis is the many multiple laser cut center electrode stuff that I think AC/DELCO??? developed 2-3? years after the +4s came out . That does not mean that fully competitive and in certain aspects superior combinations of plug technology have not come along since then - when price is considered AND limited the BOSCH Fusion line is an excellent example with some pluses and minuses vs the Plat+4s over a lifetime of service . Its not necc. intuitive , but there is every reason to believe very few people have truly found the longevity limits of a Plat+4 ,myself included .
One of my on going "experiments" is a set of PLAT+4s which now have over 135,000K accumulated in 3 different SR20DEs .
An unintended experiment within the experiment at 90K on the plugs illustrates another point .
A well meaning Infiniti Dealer during a non related repair threw in a set of NGK/Nippondenso ? PFR5B -11 Platinums which I promptly rereplaced with the old Plat=4s for better effect and then went thru ( roller ) Emissions at 20-40% of allowable limits .
Having said all this I think asserting any brand/plug design ( including BOSCH xyz as the superior or even sometimes a smart choice across all applications makes about as much sense as saying ABCD Oil in a qaW zz weight is what everybody should run .When comparing the best of the best they all have pluses and minuses .
Another observation is that the true worth of a plug is determined by the sum of its design features , how well those are integrated and how well that particular plug is matched to that particular installation .
Its a little over simplistic but the main thrust of passenger car/light truck sparkplug development over say , the last 8-12 years has been to develop "just good enough" 100K plugs at the LOWEST POSSIBLE cost without using some else's patents both in terms of design and manufacturing technology . Bosch has had a declining lions share of what matters here - when summed together .
Another reason Iridium as a material has become popular is that many/most OEM ignition systems are also built " just good enough " and without change ($) can't take advantage of other technical combinations .
Final thing , just like oil , ATF ,etc I wouldn't get hung up on one brand or one set of design features -there are way too many ways that work and work well . Although I don't run this way the simple fact of the matter is the lowest of the lows on a properly functioning engine with an in spec stock ignition are certainly " good enough " for at least some lenght of interval . Are there better performing choices for more money ? Heck yea - some of which can be noticeable right from the get go depending .
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You know , there could be some other factors concerning that stuff to just make sure of if nothing else .
1 ) Cooling system condition and performance . ( Sometimes the wrong value thermostat )
2 ) Incorrect plug ie not speced by OEM OR Plug manufacturer . Incorrect heat range ie hotter than OEM recommended . Variation on a theme ; too narrow a heat range .This happens more often when people " downgrade " from OEM spec and/or type . Sometimes leaving a plug in service too long with a "worn" gap and edges .
3 ) Chronic low grade nonoptimalities that cause lean condtions not necc. accompanied by knock and/or ping . ( Typically EGR related ) .More common on non OBD2 (full).
4 ) Constant use of the lowest possible octane recommended by OEM and sometimes even a point or so below that .
5 )Constant use of low quality fuel . Broadly the same idea -always buying fuel in small quanities .....moisture condensation over time .......
So another way to say it is that there are lots of ways for plugs to end up showing signs of heat stress many of which do not have anything to do with the plug itself .
My experience on post1990ish production of your Mitsu and others like it has been those are the more typical reasons rather than the OEM speced the plug poorly .That said , its often worth going cooler even - esp. if the true cause hasn't been fully dealt with .Same sort of logic available for plugs running too cool .
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I very much wish that were the case. Delco 41-101 Irridiums at AutoZone are $6.99 each. And from what I understand to be the case is that they are made by NGK since the letters NGK can be seen right on the AC Delco plug.
If we had a plug forum, i could post this:
Consumer News & Alerts | March 26, 2007
FEDS IGNORE FORD SPARK PLUG RISKS
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/03/ford_spark_plug_fire.html
The tax-supported federal employees at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) don't see anything wrong with big Ford truck engines that spit spark plugs out of the engine -- sometimes all the way through the hood. There's no safety hazard, insists NHTSA. But try telling that to Dan of Huntington Beach, Calif. His F250 Ford pickup spit out a spark plug and started a fast-moving fire. "It went up so fast we lost our cameras, computer, GPS and just got out ourselves," Dan told us.
Other consumers agree the problem is a hazard. "Truly this is a dangerous situation because the fuel rail is right above the coil and spark plug. If this rail and injector break when the plug blows out this could result in a fire," said Robert of Quarryville, Pennsylvania, whose 2001 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab blew its #3 spark plug a few weeks ago.
All this gets a "What, Me Worry" response from NHTSA and Ford, both in full stonewall mode. Read the full story for more disturbing details. Meanwhile, a beleaguered Ford mechanic tells us the Triton engines are "dropping like flies" and mechanics are being blamed for the manufacturer's oversight.
Tailpipe Fires
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/03/ford_tailpipe_fires.html
Perhaps, for once, Ford hopes to head off problems before they get out of hand. The company has halted sales of its big, "super-duty" trucks -- and recalled 2008 models -- after tailpipe fires were reported in three of the big diesel trucks.
Consumer News & Alerts | March 26, 2007
FEDS IGNORE FORD SPARK PLUG RISKS
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/03/ford_spark_plug_fire.html
The tax-supported federal employees at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) don't see anything wrong with big Ford truck engines that spit spark plugs out of the engine -- sometimes all the way through the hood. There's no safety hazard, insists NHTSA. But try telling that to Dan of Huntington Beach, Calif. His F250 Ford pickup spit out a spark plug and started a fast-moving fire. "It went up so fast we lost our cameras, computer, GPS and just got out ourselves," Dan told us.
Other consumers agree the problem is a hazard. "Truly this is a dangerous situation because the fuel rail is right above the coil and spark plug. If this rail and injector break when the plug blows out this could result in a fire," said Robert of Quarryville, Pennsylvania, whose 2001 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab blew its #3 spark plug a few weeks ago.
All this gets a "What, Me Worry" response from NHTSA and Ford, both in full stonewall mode. Read the full story for more disturbing details. Meanwhile, a beleaguered Ford mechanic tells us the Triton engines are "dropping like flies" and mechanics are being blamed for the manufacturer's oversight.
Tailpipe Fires
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/03/ford_tailpipe_fires.html
Perhaps, for once, Ford hopes to head off problems before they get out of hand. The company has halted sales of its big, "super-duty" trucks -- and recalled 2008 models -- after tailpipe fires were reported in three of the big diesel trucks.
Thanks! I have fresh NGK V-power plugs, CEL would come on once in a while, but then go off (in the long process of changing my O2 sensor), i only run 87 octane and keep it topped off generally, this is the first year I've ever used HEET in the fuel, run FI cleaner now and then, and I run a K&N drop in filter....
I'm sure those will work fine for you .
Two things on the CEL/O2 sensor - did you get (blinker)/other diagnostic confirmation ?
According to your owners manual is your R+M/2=???
Just thinking aloud here NY State - 15 years old( accumulated this&that (fuel tank) - 87 octane .....
Over the years I 've been able to solve a certain amount of intermittent CEL illumination by clearing fuel tank "pollution" and checking octane requirements .( extend component life /avoid replacement )
Without going into it there are certain powertrains certain years where this works big time and is a real good idea for other reasons - your 1992 Mitsu 2.0L would be one of them .
Well ,to keep this short if you haven't confirmed by other means and now you have new plugs and other things working better ...... you might want to try two/three tanks of 89/89.5/90.0 octane of some decent quality fuel - with some highway time .... and see if it goes away .
Two things on the CEL/O2 sensor - did you get (blinker)/other diagnostic confirmation ?
According to your owners manual is your R+M/2=???
Just thinking aloud here NY State - 15 years old( accumulated this&that (fuel tank) - 87 octane .....
Over the years I 've been able to solve a certain amount of intermittent CEL illumination by clearing fuel tank "pollution" and checking octane requirements .( extend component life /avoid replacement )
Without going into it there are certain powertrains certain years where this works big time and is a real good idea for other reasons - your 1992 Mitsu 2.0L would be one of them .
Well ,to keep this short if you haven't confirmed by other means and now you have new plugs and other things working better ...... you might want to try two/three tanks of 89/89.5/90.0 octane of some decent quality fuel - with some highway time .... and see if it goes away .
The plug only fires from ONE electrode at any given time. Having four of them to block the in/out flow of gas and flame is silly.
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I'm sure those will work fine for you .
Two things on the CEL/O2 sensor - did you get (blinker)/other diagnostic confirmation ?
According to your owners manual is your R+M/2=???
Just thinking aloud here NY State - 15 years old( accumulated this&that (fuel tank) - 87 octane .....
Over the years I 've been able to solve a certain amount of intermittent CEL illumination by clearing fuel tank "pollution" and checking octane requirements .( extend component life /avoid replacement )
Without going into it there are certain powertrains certain years where this works big time and is a real good idea for other reasons - your 1992 Mitsu 2.0L would be one of them .
Well ,to keep this short if you haven't confirmed by other means and now you have new plugs and other things working better ...... you might want to try two/three tanks of 89/89.5/90.0 octane of some decent quality fuel - with some highway time .... and see if it goes away .
the new O2 sensor goes in tomorrow, along with new manifold and OEM exhuast from the cat back....i had a junkyard tank installed a few months ago, new fuel filter then and a new fuel filter last week (the techron really cleaned the tank out and flushed it all into my filter)...the CEL would come on occassionally before the new tank.
I didn't get any other diagnostic info (I hate pre ODBII cars)...and right now, the O2 sensor hole has a bolt in it to keep the noise down....surprisingly , she runs great.
my manual calls for 87 octane and that's what i run, generally Sunoco....
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I very much wish that were the case. Delco 41-101 Irridiums at AutoZone are $6.99 each. And from what I understand to be the case is that they are made by NGK since the letters NGK can be seen right on the AC Delco plug.
EXACTLY!! Dominic, where have you EVER seen these for $2.50/plug?? Are you SURE you're not talking about the Delco "Rapidfires" (vs. the Iridiums)??
Where in this thread do you see myself or anyone else suggesting anything contrary .
If you believe that blocked bit I have a Bridge in Brooklyn we should talk about and some soon to be beachfront property in Arizona that I'd like to sell .
First you over count and under quantify - all plugs under discussion here have at least one side electrode and many have a conventional L shape and location ( some with a large head ) - which also means many do not enjoy the open end that a simple side electrode provides as does the Plat+4 .Perhaps you believe the Plat+4 tip somehow creates a vacuum or a low pressure area at the tip ?
Quantify that "side" blockage effect directly - then include the open front end .
Quantify the net advantage or disadvantage that you feel a Bosch Plat+4 Plug represents vs your favorite/preferred plug for this installation or something similiar at a pricepoint ranging from 0.00total cost to 3.00$/PLUG above the typical PLAT+4 at a typical parts store .
Simulated flame kernel videos by competitors using a non Plat+4 that stop after initiation are best described as clever marketing .There was one from 3/4 years ago I can no longer find that appeared altered - at least in the stills .
Notice you have ignored both instantaneous and long term potential advantages of any multiple electrode plug configuration - benefits which are likely to be realized in an installation such as this .
One way I define silly is stepping over dollars to pick up pennies which I think applies here .
Heres how I conduct a mini evaluation for spark plug selection - after sorting thru everybodies marketing hype I buy the 2-4 types I'm most interested in . Then I install them sometimes switching back and doing some other things as well . Then I keep the ones I like and give away the rest .
Of course I haven't wanted to do too much of that lately because the PLAT +4 just won't wear out .
Final thought why don't you do the same - back to back and see . Over the years I have worked my way thru about 1/2 the Asian manufacturers do not use tsbs - including a few wasted spark systems - always to good effect - and never with a problem .
Now on a more positive note I've been looking at those Bosch Fusion plugs I mentioned in the previous post .
They appear to be an interesting plug with some superior design features vs = NGK ETC , again , keeping cost in mind .
Have you any experience with them ?
Look. People have had numerous issues with Bosch Platinum+4 plugs in various applications. I don't disagree that they work fine in certain apps. For instance, my neighbor installed them into his 2001MY 1ZZ-FE engine at 160k? or so and is currently at 215k (or thereabouts) and has had no issues. Other people have had problems with misfire and such.
The Saturn S-Series engine that I have is notorious for having issues with Platinum plugs, no exception to Bosch. I've used NGK V-Power Copper, NGK copper, and Delco copper plugs exclusively without issues for the past 99k miles.
If you are so certain that +4 plugs are the best (bar none), I'll throw a set into the Saturn the next time I need new plugs (in about two years?). And if it they don't work or give me all kinds of hassle, I should expect $25 back from you.
The Saturn S-Series engine that I have is notorious for having issues with Platinum plugs, no exception to Bosch. I've used NGK V-Power Copper, NGK copper, and Delco copper plugs exclusively without issues for the past 99k miles.
If you are so certain that +4 plugs are the best (bar none), I'll throw a set into the Saturn the next time I need new plugs (in about two years?). And if it they don't work or give me all kinds of hassle, I should expect $25 back from you.
" If you are so certain that +4 plugs are the best (bar none)"
Sigh ...... how about posting back based on some sort of reality ..... instead of trying to put words in somebodies mouth that they havn't said . This is what I posted earlier in this thread . I can't say it any plainer than that .
Some of the information here and anywhere else on spark plugs is shall we say " over determined " , over generalised ,flat out wrong , or situationally dependent - without full qualification .
Having said all this I think asserting any brand/plug design ( including BOSCH xyz as the superior or even sometimes a smart choice across all applications makes about as much sense as saying ABCD Oil in a qaW zz weight is what everybody should run .When comparing the best of the best they all have pluses and minuses .
Do you even read what other people post before you post back ?
Sigh ...... how about posting back based on some sort of reality ..... instead of trying to put words in somebodies mouth that they havn't said . This is what I posted earlier in this thread . I can't say it any plainer than that .
Some of the information here and anywhere else on spark plugs is shall we say " over determined " , over generalised ,flat out wrong , or situationally dependent - without full qualification .
Having said all this I think asserting any brand/plug design ( including BOSCH xyz as the superior or even sometimes a smart choice across all applications makes about as much sense as saying ABCD Oil in a qaW zz weight is what everybody should run .When comparing the best of the best they all have pluses and minuses .
Do you even read what other people post before you post back ?
the only plug design that makes "power" is the correct plug design for the application. you can daydream all you want about electrode configurations but in reality the potential gains though unscientific experimentation are minimal and even the plug manufacturers will say that. do some reading on NGK's regular website, not their hyped up iridium site, you'll learn alot.
you'll notice the only odd design OEM plugs are for engines that have specific issues, such as mazda rotaries and mid 90's BMW v8s.
materials on their own increase longevity, not power. they don't produce "hotter" "better" "more efficient" "higher voltage" sparks.
you'll notice the only odd design OEM plugs are for engines that have specific issues, such as mazda rotaries and mid 90's BMW v8s.
materials on their own increase longevity, not power. they don't produce "hotter" "better" "more efficient" "higher voltage" sparks.
the new O2 sensor goes in tomorrow, along with new manifold and OEM exhuast from the cat back....i had a junkyard tank installed a few months ago, new fuel filter then and a new fuel filter last week (the techron really cleaned the tank out and flushed it all into my filter)...the CEL would come on occassionally before the new tank.
I didn't get any other diagnostic info (I hate pre ODBII cars)...and right now, the O2 sensor hole has a bolt in it to keep the noise down....surprisingly , she runs great.
my manual calls for 87 octane and that's what i run, generally Sunoco....
I probably missed some posts somewhere ...... Sounds like you got a handle on it -have to let us know how it turns out .
I didn't get any other diagnostic info (I hate pre ODBII cars)...and right now, the O2 sensor hole has a bolt in it to keep the noise down....surprisingly , she runs great.
my manual calls for 87 octane and that's what i run, generally Sunoco....
I probably missed some posts somewhere ...... Sounds like you got a handle on it -have to let us know how it turns out .
I used Bosch Platinum +4s in my old Escort without any problems. In fact, one set lasted 100K miles just as Bosch claimed it would, and the new replacements did not look that much different. Granted, these plugs aren't for everybody, and many report that +4s do seem to be incompatible with their particular engines, especially those that are turbocharged.
Bosch does not claim that all four electrodes spark at once, but that the spark finds the shortest path among the four electrodes, keeping the gap for all four in spec for longer instead of a single electrode eroding continually and eventually getting too large a gap. We've had stories here on BITOG about OEM plugs being too far out of spec to regap after just 30,000 to 50,000 miles, despite a stated 100K mileage change schedule. In fact, it happened to me, as the OEM Motorcraft/Autolite double platinum plugs in the Escort were way out by 50K miles, which is when I became interested in trying other plugs. Well, here is an aftermarket plug that for me did last 100K miles without incident or going out of spec, and the car seemed to "like" them.
That said, since the plugs on my Taurus that replaced the Escort were changed just before I bought the car, I'm going to leave well enough alone for now. Might try NGKs when I do change.
By the way, I vote YES on a separate spark plug forum. Suggestion: Perhaps the forum could be expanded to cover ignition systems and components (coils, wires, etc.) instead of only the plugs. This is one area where a lot of DIYers/BITOGers tinker, just as with trying oil and filters.
Bosch does not claim that all four electrodes spark at once, but that the spark finds the shortest path among the four electrodes, keeping the gap for all four in spec for longer instead of a single electrode eroding continually and eventually getting too large a gap. We've had stories here on BITOG about OEM plugs being too far out of spec to regap after just 30,000 to 50,000 miles, despite a stated 100K mileage change schedule. In fact, it happened to me, as the OEM Motorcraft/Autolite double platinum plugs in the Escort were way out by 50K miles, which is when I became interested in trying other plugs. Well, here is an aftermarket plug that for me did last 100K miles without incident or going out of spec, and the car seemed to "like" them.
That said, since the plugs on my Taurus that replaced the Escort were changed just before I bought the car, I'm going to leave well enough alone for now. Might try NGKs when I do change.
By the way, I vote YES on a separate spark plug forum. Suggestion: Perhaps the forum could be expanded to cover ignition systems and components (coils, wires, etc.) instead of only the plugs. This is one area where a lot of DIYers/BITOGers tinker, just as with trying oil and filters.
I think that an "Engine Management Systems" forum should be started, within which spark plugs could be discussed.
Sigh ....yet another farmer and his mule hoves into view with a wagon full .
Wow .....Hmmmm ......inaccurate but clever , distorted but believable , nasty but impressively constructed in certain ways nonetheless .
You ever think of doing spin/propaganda/"marketing " for a living ?
You definitely have the knack - and soooo much more ... that was smoooooth .
On that basis :
Well ,Lemme guess .... everything you think you know about spark plugs you learned from the NGK website and you are a proud owner and believer in the toyota " The How To Succeed In Racing " Manual AND the How To Design A Headgasket engineering book "
Oh , and um ...... the guess you made about what makes a Plat+4 such an attractive proposition for this application is wrong ..... and very revealing .
Wow .....Hmmmm ......inaccurate but clever , distorted but believable , nasty but impressively constructed in certain ways nonetheless .
You ever think of doing spin/propaganda/"marketing " for a living ?
You definitely have the knack - and soooo much more ... that was smoooooth .
On that basis :
Well ,Lemme guess .... everything you think you know about spark plugs you learned from the NGK website and you are a proud owner and believer in the toyota " The How To Succeed In Racing " Manual AND the How To Design A Headgasket engineering book "
Oh , and um ...... the guess you made about what makes a Plat+4 such an attractive proposition for this application is wrong ..... and very revealing .
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