Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: StevieC

Further last I checked those "Foreign" manufacturers are employing people in factories here.

I'm going to stop here.

Yup.

Toyota = factories in USA
Honda = factories in USA
BMW = factories in USA
Mercedes-Benz = factories in the USA



That's overly simplistic.
Assembly is just one part of the automotive manufacturing process.

Where was the R&D money spent, where do profits go, where are the majority of taxes paid?

There is zero doubt that US-based manufacturers spend exponentially more R&D money in the US, the last time I checked (which has been several years) Ford and GM were only outspent by Pfizer in US-based R&D.
There are billions upon billions of dollars beings spent in the auto industry that has little to do with actually bolting the cars together.


Gotta throw the flag on this.
Figures lie and liars figure.
If GM and Ford really spent that kind of coin on R&D, they'd have a world-class product or two on offer.
They don't.


Both Ford and GM both offer several world class products. What rock have you been living under?

 

[fdcg27]

Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.

 

[Kurtatron]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: StevieC

Further last I checked those "Foreign" manufacturers are employing people in factories here.

I'm going to stop here.

Yup.
Toyota = factories in USA
Honda = factories in USA
BMW = factories in USA
Mercedes-Benz = factories in the USA



That's overly simplistic.
Assembly is just one part of the automotive manufacturing process.

Where was the R&D money spent, where do profits go, where are the majority of taxes paid?

There is zero doubt that US-based manufacturers spend exponentially more R&D money in the US, the last time I checked (which has been several years) Ford and GM were only outspent by Pfizer in US-based R&D.
There are billions upon billions of dollars beings spent in the auto industry that has little to do with actually bolting the cars together.


Gotta throw the flag on this.
Figures lie and liars figure.
If GM and Ford really spent that kind of coin on R&D, they'd have a world-class product or two on offer.
They don't.
For my money, Honda employs more Ohioans than does either GM or Ford, so I feel that I'm doing more to support employment in my part of the world buying an Accord than anything GM, Ford or FCA.
We've had five made in Ohio Accords and have been happy with all of them.


I really wish someone could offer an infographic or study showing the proportion of where money goes with a car purchase. I live and work in Motor City as an engineer, and Based on my observation living here, I have to agree with Ben. I don’t think factory workers take up a large proportion of revenue for a manufacturer. The sheer amount of engineering part suppliers in the motor city I think reveals where most of the money goes, to headquarters and engineers. Compare the salary of engineers, CEOs to factory workers, and I think the conclusion can be drawn that buying a domestic vehicle sends a larger portion of money back to Domestic inhabits, than a foreign make.

I mean think about it, Foreign manufacturers aren’t in the business for charity. They aren’t going to give most of their profits to other countries, they will bring it back to HQ, and their research and engineering. That’s what I see here. I do hear people say, well the Fiesta is built in Mexico, which I don’t necessarily support either, but I can’t really believe that generous CEOs are paying the Mexican factory workers a large share of the profits. Besides, why do they deserves any less than Americans anyways.

Really I think all workers, American and foreign should be treated fairly and equally. I am ok supporting domestic and foreign car companies in my purchase, as long as there is no employee abuse to “get ahead.”

But I still believe buying a domestic car is better for domestic land than a foreign car, but that may not be important to you. If The big 3 are crooks, then they deserve to fail.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


I'd add F-150, Silverado, ATS and CTS - especially in V trim.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


Niche products that mean absolutely nothing in the context of a volume manufacturer playing on the world stage.
The Ford GT is a money loser while the Corvette might be profitable given the volume in which Chevy sells them.
Neither could ever hope to generate the profits of a good mid sized sedan program, much less a hot CUV.
Ford and Chevy aren't Ferrari. Their money is made in good volume products, not halo cars that few would consider buying even among those who could afford to.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


I'd add F-150, Silverado, ATS and CTS - especially in V trim.


The pickups?
Sure, given that there is no other market in the world that supports this type of vehicle.
If half ton pickups were common elsewhere, Ford and Chevy might have something to worry about.
Since they aren't, they don't.
The Caddy's?
Quite debatable.
These cars lack the overall refinement of the German and the Japanese models that they seek to emulate but still seem pretty good.
I have to admit that these cars show that Cadillac is going in the right direction and might someday lose the ghetto fabulous rep and come to be regarded as a legitimate competitor to various BMW and Lexus models, which appears to be what GM is aiming for.
This is an effort that may well succeed, especially as BMW dumbs down their own offerings.
I am rooting for the home team here. Would love to see Cadillac become the next Lexus or BMW.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.

Ones not mentioned -
Mustang, Camaro. Very, very capable sports cars that nearly anyone can afford.

I'd agree that the F-series and Silverado are world class. They are the best of the best.

Nothing special or World Class about Honda or Subaru which you seem to like. If anything, Honda is vastly overrated.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
This could keep going around and around endlessly, but it's a waste of time at this point. It has been acknowledged that Ford DID take a Government loan. Albeit under different circumstances than TARP.

In their advertising at the time, they didn't mention that distinction. Ford just said they didn't take Government money. And reaped the windfall of sales based on that disingenuous statement.



Ford also had an Egoboost ad that claimed you could "burn air, not gasoline". Advertising is always a bit disingenuous...

 

[4WD]

You might say Toyota and Nissan have tried mighty hard to take over full size trucks … they have to be a bit disappointed at this stage … and the SK cars are not making life easy either …

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


Niche products that mean absolutely nothing in the context of a volume manufacturer playing on the world stage.
The Ford GT is a money loser while the Corvette might be profitable given the volume in which Chevy sells them.
Neither could ever hope to generate the profits of a good mid sized sedan program, much less a hot CUV.
Ford and Chevy aren't Ferrari. Their money is made in good volume products, not halo cars that few would consider buying even among those who could afford to.


You seemed to neglect mentioning those qualifiers in the post I quoted. You asked for world-class products, both of those fit the bill and were manufactured by the marques in question. Full-stop. You may not like the answer, but that's not my problem.

You are right though, Ford and Chevy aren't Ferrari, as Ferrari was owned by FIAT starting in 1969. Similar to how Ford owned Aston Martin and Chrysler used to own Lamborghini (now owed by Audi). You can't compare a company that can't make enough money to survive on its own to some of the largest brands in the world, even if at times, they've been horribly managed (GM).

Have a GREAT day.

 

[StevieC]

Every manufacturer has great vehicles in their line-up and then they have their problem children. The real question here is what the proportion is for each manufacturer. IMO from what I have serviced first hand, the Big 3 are the worst for problem children in comparison to the great vehicles they also produce whereas the other manufacturers are the reverse and have more winners than problem children.

We need to look at it model for model and not brand by brand.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


Bingo.

As has also been mentioned. F-Series and Silverado/Sierra also qualify.

Mustang/Camaro are also giving the class competing Germans headaches these days.

The Focus may even quality as a world class product.

What is world-class, anyway? That's a fairly ambiguous term. Does class-leading qualify as world class?

Certainly the 5.0 Coyote and 6.7 Powerstroke are "world-class" engines.
The 10R and 10L are world-class RWD transmissions.

How far do we take this?
Arguments can be made for far more products as well.

 

[Kurtatron]

I’d say Ford’s recent compact car automatic transmissions are problematic though. I love those old crown Vics. My friend had an explorer sport trac with 270.000 miles and original tranny and engine. American trucks I think overall are pretty good. I have trouble trusting their compact cars though.

 

[jeepman3071]

Define "world-class".

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
I’d say Ford’s recent compact car automatic transmissions are problematic though. I love those old crown Vics. My friend had an explorer sport trac with 270.000 miles and original tranny and engine. American trucks I think overall are pretty good. I have trouble trusting their compact cars though.


IMO the big 3 have always struggled with their car offerings, especially the compact segment. Trucks/SUV's/CUV's/Sports Cars is where they seem to do a decent to great job.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
I’d say Ford’s recent compact car automatic transmissions are problematic though. I love those old crown Vics. My friend had an explorer sport trac with 270.000 miles and original tranny and engine. American trucks I think overall are pretty good. I have trouble trusting their compact cars though.


IMO the big 3 have always struggled with their car offerings, especially the compact segment. Trucks/SUV's/CUV's/Sports Cars is where they seem to do a decent to great job.


The 6F series (6F35/50/55) seems to be holding up well after the initial teething pains in the Fusion were addressed. They sure are used in a lot of various Fords (nearly every car, CUV, and SUV with the exception of the Expedition) so failures would show up quickly.

And there are a lot of rose colored glasses. Forgetting early CVCC Hondas had issues (dropped valves, IIRC) and were extremely complex. Forgetting that the early Civics and Accords were rust buckets and still need valve adjustments up into the 2000s. And that Honda took how long to make a reliable automatic? Or that Toyota has sludge bucket engines, and other issues.

Sure GM and Ford made some duds and had QC issues but so did their Asian counterparts but we were told that they were "better" so we glossed over their faults.

I'd put my 2010 Taurus up against a 2010 Accord or Camry on the reliability front.
I'd have put the wife's previous 2003 Escape up against a CRV or RAV4 as well.
Or the 2011 F150 against a Tundra or Ridgeline.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
I really wish someone could offer an infographic or study showing the proportion of where money goes with a car purchase. I live and work in Motor City as an engineer, and Based on my observation living here, I have to agree with Ben. I don’t think factory workers take up a large proportion of revenue for a manufacturer. The sheer amount of engineering part suppliers in the motor city I think reveals where most of the money goes, to headquarters and engineers. Compare the salary of engineers, CEOs to factory workers, and I think the conclusion can be drawn that buying a domestic vehicle sends a larger portion of money back to Domestic inhabits, than a foreign make.

I mean think about it, Foreign manufacturers aren’t in the business for charity. They aren’t going to give most of their profits to other countries, they will bring it back to HQ, and their research and engineering. That’s what I see here. I do hear people say, well the Fiesta is built in Mexico, which I don’t necessarily support either, but I can’t really believe that generous CEOs are paying the Mexican factory workers a large share of the profits. Besides, why do they deserves any less than Americans anyways.

Really I think all workers, American and foreign should be treated fairly and equally. I am ok supporting domestic and foreign car companies in my purchase, as long as there is no employee abuse to “get ahead.”

But I still believe buying a domestic car is better for domestic land than a foreign car, but that may not be important to you. If The big 3 are crooks, then they deserve to fail.


It is not just the Factory... it is all the support industries that spring up around manufacturing activity. A factory with 2,500 workers will support a lot more "value added" than a few hundred engineers in an office park. Sure, the "product" value (or salary) can be similar, but the investment value is much higher around the finishing plant. For example, BMW was 2+ billion investment in South Carolina. Employs about 9,000 folks... but the read big boost is to all the other support industries. You have other "just in time" manufacturing activities like an sub/contracted seat manufacturer or equipment/parts suppliers. Then you have the third level auxiliary items and the fourth tier human-side support (the food industry, housing, etc). Don't get me wrong, HQ can be important but you do not see the same local impact that builds around white-collar oriented manufacturing activity. Now, start talking other industries and you do see that but it is geared towards "production" like software production or research universities.

But that even gets a bit more muddled. Even the Big 3's white collar workforce is very global. Every automaker is poaching global talent. The Research, Design and Engineering are global. Marketing and Sales is global. BMW/Mazda./Toyota funds research in South Carolina. Ok, technically, Chrysler, Ford, GM & Honda have too. Still, if things are going to be "American" I expect the lifecycle to be American. The big three have a bad habit of using George Washington to sell car made in Canada (ok, I am fine with Canadian made vehicles)... and then import Belgian, Korean and Chinese rebadged product... looking at you Buick.

My next question is always this: Why should I support Michigan? As a Southerner, with close ties to the Upstate SC and Eastern Virginia... I rather buy and support BMW compared to Ford. Ford closed its Norfolk truck plant when BMW has done some good things in the Upstate. Ford closed a plant that makes trucks... in 2007. Jeeze, not like that wasn't selling but they move their production back "nawth". Soured a lot of folks in the tidewater. If you really want to push the local argument, why should any non-midwest support the midwest company when other companies are "local". I call this the "Michigan" problem. FYI, I was one of those researcher in South Carolina and my PHD colleague was a Michigan man. We had those long debates.

At the end of the day, I don't care where something is "made". All I want is the best for my hard-earned money. Detroit, Tokyo, Seoul... all "imported" to North Carolina to me. I will give anything a fair shake (a hurdle that FCA can never overcome) but it is all about the merits of the product at the pricepoint. I won't drink bad beer just because it is local... thank God I live in Asheville.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
The 6F series (6F35/50/55) seems to be holding up well after the initial teething pains in the Fusion were addressed. They sure are used in a lot of various Fords (nearly every car, CUV, and SUV with the exception of the Expedition) so failures would show up quickly.

And there are a lot of rose colored glasses. Forgetting early CVCC Hondas had issues (dropped valves, IIRC) and were extremely complex. Forgetting that the early Civics and Accords were rust buckets and still need valve adjustments up into the 2000s. And that Honda took how long to make a reliable automatic? Or that Toyota has sludge bucket engines, and other issues.


But here is the irony... the Japanese "problem" areas were still more reliable than their domestic counterpart. Those Honda transmissions WHEN PAIRED WITH THEIR V6 failed... but typically after a lot of high mile use. Their I4 paired transmissions were epic. Compare that to my Impala fleet. Only one of the three are on their original transmission... and that was salvaged a few months ago due to a wreck. Ford Taurus? I have three. Throttle issues with the 3.7 and water-tightness issue. Yeah, the rear doors and trunk fill with water. Older Tauruses were nicknamed trixie... because you thought it was fixed but SURPRISE!!! You are stranded! Tranny, a few alternators, power steering, suspension ect. I almost bought it on government surplus to give it its own funeral pyre... but knowing its luck, it would not be reliable enough to catch fire.

Toyota Engines Sludging? Heck, they still ran. The worse sludgers were also some of the more reliable vehicles too. Compare those to the "reliable" Panther bodies. Sure the Modular 4.6 and basic drivetrain was fantastic... but everything else possible broke and broke repeatedly. The doors would fall off. Seriously. Seen it happen when a driver got out and clunk, door not attached (save for the electrical).

Here is the trick... I run a government fleet. We buy mostly domestic. (Now have access to Nissans! Meh). So I have a few examples of several models and often see multiple generations of a similar product. Caravans? I have 6. Fusions? 2 Explorers 3, Journeys, 3, Impalas: down to one. Taurus? 3. Transits, a few. E-Series - a few, F-150s a few. Heck, I still have some Uplanders... remember those POS boxes... I still drive them every so often! I have had Blazers, Trailblazers, Escapes, Avengers, Panthers, Suburbans, etc. If you have multiple examples of domestics, you will quickly note that their quality is all over the place. Take the Impalas. One could not stay out of the shop and the other was only gas/oil-changes and go. My 05 Escape was fine but the brakes (Hybrid issues) but failing trim and a rear diff spelled its doom. With the domestics, what happens is a design flaw combined with shoddy consistency. That is what makes folks unhappy with the Big three with reliability. If you have a "good one", yeah there is nothing wrong with most domestics (Ford, GM... no Italian owned here). However, if you had a 1 in 3 change of a clunker domestic compared to a 1 in 50 chance with an imported brand... that is why folks buy Honda and Toyota. They are consistently good/excellent rather than occasional excellent. The other key thing with the "imports" is that get all the other tings right. Drivetrains for the domestic are good, but why in the heck are the door handles of a 2008 Chevy Uplander so brittle? Both of mine are broken. Snapped. Why does one of my Transits always have a a broken tire sensor. You don't see those little things happening in Japanese branded vehicles.

Originally Posted By: itguy08

I'd put my 2010 Taurus up against a 2010 Accord or Camry on the reliability front.
I'd have put the wife's previous 2003 Escape up against a CRV or RAV4 as well.
Or the 2011 F150 against a Tundra or Ridgeline.


Give me 100 of each (2017s), lets run them to 300,000 and tally the operating cost. It will not even be a fair fight. Not only that, but what a world of hurt if you want to start comparing 2010/2011 Accords/Camrys, early 2000s Rav4s/CRVs as those are some of the era combined with the domestics gawd-aweful-era products.

Domestic vehicles are not bad. A lot will run a long time. However, they are not consistently good and that complaint from folks is perfectly valid.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: itguy08

The 6F series (6F35/50/55) seems to be holding up well after the initial teething pains in the Fusion were addressed. They sure are used in a lot of various Fords (nearly every car, CUV, and SUV with the exception of the Expedition) so failures would show up quickly.

And there are a lot of rose colored glasses. Forgetting early CVCC Hondas had issues (dropped valves, IIRC) and were extremely complex. Forgetting that the early Civics and Accords were rust buckets and still need valve adjustments up into the 2000s. And that Honda took how long to make a reliable automatic? Or that Toyota has sludge bucket engines, and other issues.

Sure GM and Ford made some duds and had QC issues but so did their Asian counterparts but we were told that they were "better" so we glossed over their faults.

I'd put my 2010 Taurus up against a 2010 Accord or Camry on the reliability front.
I'd have put the wife's previous 2003 Escape up against a CRV or RAV4 as well.
Or the 2011 F150 against a Tundra or Ridgeline.


I guess you missed this...

Quote:

Every manufacturer has great vehicles in their line-up and then they have their problem children. The real question here is what the proportion is for each manufacturer. IMO from what I have serviced first hand, the Big 3 are the worst for problem children in comparison to the great vehicles they also produce whereas the other manufacturers are the reverse and have more winners than problem children.

We need to look at it model for model and not brand by brand.