Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed
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Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Trollin'
Even the fleet guys hate, HATE these vehicles. The only thing you could say "positive" about these cars was that they WERE cheaper than a Dart.
Claiming that the "Avengers" are not that bad is a lot like the "tis but a scratch" skit from Monty Python.
After the mid cycle enhancements (2011?) they really weren't bad. Actually enjoyed them as rentals. The earlier ones just had the worst Rubbermaid interiors ever.
I drove a couple and they weren't bad at all. Tbe base Avenger was unimpressive, mostly because of the 4-cylinder engine and old 4-speed transaxle. It was fine, though, with a decent ride, large trunk, and was comfortable for 2200 miles in a week. The V6 model (I drove a 200) is vastly better, and the Pentastar engine turns the relatively light car into a rocket. Bonus: with the 6-speed transaxle, it got nearly 30mpg despite 80mph highway use and some spirited driving.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Trollin'
Even the fleet guys hate, HATE these vehicles. The only thing you could say "positive" about these cars was that they WERE cheaper than a Dart.
Claiming that the "Avengers" are not that bad is a lot like the "tis but a scratch" skit from Monty Python.
After the mid cycle enhancements (2011?) they really weren't bad. Actually enjoyed them as rentals. The earlier ones just had the worst Rubbermaid interiors ever.
I drove a couple and they weren't bad at all. Tbe base Avenger was unimpressive, mostly because of the 4-cylinder engine and old 4-speed transaxle. It was fine, though, with a decent ride, large trunk, and was comfortable for 2200 miles in a week. The V6 model (I drove a 200) is vastly better, and the Pentastar engine turns the relatively light car into a rocket. Bonus: with the 6-speed transaxle, it got nearly 30mpg despite 80mph highway use and some spirited driving.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Trollin'
Even the fleet guys hate, HATE these vehicles. The only thing you could say "positive" about these cars was that they WERE cheaper than a Dart.
Claiming that the "Avengers" are not that bad is a lot like the "tis but a scratch" skit from Monty Python.
After the mid cycle enhancements (2011?) they really weren't bad. Actually enjoyed them as rentals. The earlier ones just had the worst Rubbermaid interiors ever.
No, even after the "refresh", they were bad. I only consider the 2008 Chevy Uplander a worse horrifically bad car. The 6-speed made them better but I only saw the 4-speed in the fleet use.
The Camry is(was?) boring, but if you are doing the long trip fleet use, give me a camry. A 2011-era and on Camry is decent, better gas mileage, better space, ride.
I consider the Dodge Journeys (that replaced our Avenger) to be a step up and those are so shoddy that the PRND letters on the shifter look like a kindergarden craft project. It has an infotainment cluster without bluetooth intergration. Our users complain the pairing is broken until we tell them it can't pair.
Having rented both, I would rather rent a 200 or Avenger than a Camry.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Trollin'
Even the fleet guys hate, HATE these vehicles. The only thing you could say "positive" about these cars was that they WERE cheaper than a Dart.
Claiming that the "Avengers" are not that bad is a lot like the "tis but a scratch" skit from Monty Python.
After the mid cycle enhancements (2011?) they really weren't bad. Actually enjoyed them as rentals. The earlier ones just had the worst Rubbermaid interiors ever.
No, even after the "refresh", they were bad. I only consider the 2008 Chevy Uplander a worse horrifically bad car. The 6-speed made them better but I only saw the 4-speed in the fleet use.
The Camry is(was?) boring, but if you are doing the long trip fleet use, give me a camry. A 2011-era and on Camry is decent, better gas mileage, better space, ride.
I consider the Dodge Journeys (that replaced our Avenger) to be a step up and those are so shoddy that the PRND letters on the shifter look like a kindergarden craft project. It has an infotainment cluster without bluetooth intergration. Our users complain the pairing is broken until we tell them it can't pair.
Having rented both, I would rather rent a 200 or Avenger than a Camry.
Originally Posted By: klt1986
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
Probably hard for you to believe but those are your opinions.
Oh yeah, funny how that works. Should i have included a disclaimer?
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
Probably hard for you to believe but those are your opinions.
Oh yeah, funny how that works. Should i have included a disclaimer?
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
2010 Toyota, 164K miles, zero repairs.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
2010 Toyota, 164K miles, zero repairs.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
2010 Toyota, 164K miles, zero repairs.
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.
2010 Toyota, 164K miles, zero repairs.
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
My problem with Toyota is simply that they don't build anything that really interests me aside from the 86- and I don't need another coupe. If I ever decide to go FWD again(doubtful, although my MS3 was fun)) I'd definitely consider the Civic Type R.
I have a 96 Chrysler Concorde with over 212K miles and a 1998 Buick Century over 156K miles. Neither has been perfect, but I would do both again in a heartbeat before I would ever consider anything made by Ford.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
I won't tell a man that his particular car is no good. That's what a troll would do. I was lamenting the general direction Toyota has gone in since the 1990s.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
I won't tell a man that his particular car is no good. That's what a troll would do. I was lamenting the general direction Toyota has gone in since the 1990s.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Do you buy your KoolAid by the drum, or in bulk from the tanker?
There is plenty of KoolAid to go around.
GM kept drinking their Koolaid, while they watched their US market share go from over 50% to what is it now, half that? They didn't take the competition seriously, which is a form of koolaid consumption.
I'd have to say it's hard to keep market share by koolaid alone. Toyota, Honda and others didn't build their market share by marketing alone. They had to get better. To be honest, their first offerings were not the greatest.
But they did get better. And while they were doing this, management at the big three automakers at that time kept drinking their koolaid, ignoring the reality that faced them.
But consumers took notice. The Japanese cars were getting better and would run, reliably for as long if not longer than comparable cars from GM, Ford and Chrysler.
My point is koolaid isn't a one-sided deal. There is plenty of koolaid on both sides of the aisle.
I had had good luck with GM until the 1980s. By the early 2000s, I had made the move, via GM to Toyota. Had Geo Prizm which I found aged much better than a comparable Cavalier. We had a 2002 Camry that went 277k miles with relatively few repairs over that time. We are having good luck with our 2010 Nissan Altima and 2003 Corolla. My 2003 Mazda has been a mixed bag. But it's more fun to drive, so I keep it around.
But I have to say our '99 Mercury Grand Marquis has been a good car as well.
Do you buy your KoolAid by the drum, or in bulk from the tanker?
There is plenty of KoolAid to go around.
GM kept drinking their Koolaid, while they watched their US market share go from over 50% to what is it now, half that? They didn't take the competition seriously, which is a form of koolaid consumption.
I'd have to say it's hard to keep market share by koolaid alone. Toyota, Honda and others didn't build their market share by marketing alone. They had to get better. To be honest, their first offerings were not the greatest.
But they did get better. And while they were doing this, management at the big three automakers at that time kept drinking their koolaid, ignoring the reality that faced them.
But consumers took notice. The Japanese cars were getting better and would run, reliably for as long if not longer than comparable cars from GM, Ford and Chrysler.
My point is koolaid isn't a one-sided deal. There is plenty of koolaid on both sides of the aisle.
I had had good luck with GM until the 1980s. By the early 2000s, I had made the move, via GM to Toyota. Had Geo Prizm which I found aged much better than a comparable Cavalier. We had a 2002 Camry that went 277k miles with relatively few repairs over that time. We are having good luck with our 2010 Nissan Altima and 2003 Corolla. My 2003 Mazda has been a mixed bag. But it's more fun to drive, so I keep it around.
But I have to say our '99 Mercury Grand Marquis has been a good car as well.
The 1995-1999 Crown Vic/Grand Marquis is just about the only good thing I can say about Ford. If not abused...those things are nearly bulletproof.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'd have to say it's hard to keep market share by koolaid alone. Toyota, Honda and others didn't build their market share by marketing alone. They had to get better. To be honest, their first offerings were not the greatest.
I'll agree with that. I remember when my college friends' Hondas all hit 120-130K miles, the CVCC engines would go up. My experiences with early Toyotas were much more limited, my impression was they were slow, reliable and rusted very fast. And ugly.
I'd have to say it's hard to keep market share by koolaid alone. Toyota, Honda and others didn't build their market share by marketing alone. They had to get better. To be honest, their first offerings were not the greatest.
I'll agree with that. I remember when my college friends' Hondas all hit 120-130K miles, the CVCC engines would go up. My experiences with early Toyotas were much more limited, my impression was they were slow, reliable and rusted very fast. And ugly.
That's odd. We owned three CVCC Civics. We sold one at 160K and then lost track of it but the other two both went well past 200K with no engine work.
Maybe what caused you college friends' Hondas to die was because they drove them until the timing belts broke?
It should also be noted that seventies cars from Germany, France, Italy, Britain and Sweden as well as this country rusted badly. This was not exclusive to Japanese brands nor to Toyotas.
Maybe what caused you college friends' Hondas to die was because they drove them until the timing belts broke?
It should also be noted that seventies cars from Germany, France, Italy, Britain and Sweden as well as this country rusted badly. This was not exclusive to Japanese brands nor to Toyotas.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
I don't think that lying is involved.
It's rather that many of the reporting owners have no idea what was wrong with their car nor what was needed to fix it. A simple software flash might fix an alleged engine or transmission problem where there was no actual mechanical problem at all.
Still, I don't know that there is a better source of information available to all than CR.
JD Powers is a joke and the huge fleet databases are limited to the cheapo models fleets buy and are only available to those of us who are involved in running fleet vehicles.
It's rather that many of the reporting owners have no idea what was wrong with their car nor what was needed to fix it. A simple software flash might fix an alleged engine or transmission problem where there was no actual mechanical problem at all.
Still, I don't know that there is a better source of information available to all than CR.
JD Powers is a joke and the huge fleet databases are limited to the cheapo models fleets buy and are only available to those of us who are involved in running fleet vehicles.
But does it really matter what the issue is? In all seriousness to people they have a problem and get it fixed. They don't know or care of the transmission needs replaced or if it's a software issue. It's still a problem with the vehicle that needs addressed.
I had a software issue with my Taurus when new where on some downshifts at WOT or nearby you would think you left the transmission behind you. Software issue and now @ 116k it's fine. But I'd consider that a transmission problem.
As a used buyer it would give one pause since they don't know if it's a genuine issue or a software issue and can't be determined without expensive equipment or a dealer visit.
I had a software issue with my Taurus when new where on some downshifts at WOT or nearby you would think you left the transmission behind you. Software issue and now @ 116k it's fine. But I'd consider that a transmission problem.
As a used buyer it would give one pause since they don't know if it's a genuine issue or a software issue and can't be determined without expensive equipment or a dealer visit.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
They make vehicles that can tow 22,000 pounds, Have a 8 foot bed, Seating for 5?? Don't get me wrong....I like Mercedes & had a 300TD that was a really good car.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
They make vehicles that can tow 22,000 pounds, Have a 8 foot bed, Seating for 5?? Don't get me wrong....I like Mercedes & had a 300TD that was a really good car.
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