Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed
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Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
There you have it, Same exact car as mine & you love it.
The power is one of my biggest complaints, I can't compare it to another 4 cylinder as I haven't had one besides this one in ages. It doesn't maintain speed on long hills at all.....WOT at 6,500 RPM to stay with traffic. My truck could tow this car up a hill faster!!
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
What model Toyota, if I may please ask?
Corolla.
You can make fun of my boring car, but it is sure easy on my budget, and predictable to. Gas and planned maintenance, that's it. Tires wear evenly and last until I can't stand them any more. I give it exactly one alignment per set of tires. First set of front brakes lasted over 100K. Still on original rear brakes.
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
There you have it, Same exact car as mine & you love it.
The power is one of my biggest complaints, I can't compare it to another 4 cylinder as I haven't had one besides this one in ages. It doesn't maintain speed on long hills at all.....WOT at 6,500 RPM to stay with traffic. My truck could tow this car up a hill faster!!
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
How do you like your new to you 4Runner compared to the previous Highlander that you had? Sure seems much more truck like. Great color too!
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
How do you like your new to you 4Runner compared to the previous Highlander that you had? Sure seems much more truck like. Great color too!
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
Good to hear and thank you for the report. I'm not surprised given my personal experiences with them as well.
Toyota makes good, bad and indifferent models. They may not be everyone's cup of tea. They certainly split out some of their excitement into the Scion brand and then let it wither on the vine there. But overall I think their cars are now better than their 90's efforts. For example my 1.8L has more horsepower than any 22R ever did, and almost as much as the turbo model. This is just my opinion, based on driving, fixing and/or just observing all my friend's cars, and being their go-to guy for car advice.
Good to hear and thank you for the report. I'm not surprised given my personal experiences with them as well.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The power is one of my biggest complaints, I can't compare it to another 4 cylinder as I haven't had one besides this one in ages. It doesn't maintain speed on long hills at all.....WOT at 6,500 RPM to stay with traffic. My truck could tow this car up a hill faster!!
Something's wrong with your Corolla, unless you have something older than a 10th Gen. The only time I use WOT is to merge. I live in hill country. I have no problem climbing hills and keeping up with traffic. Local Interstate has 70MPH speed limit, has hills and everybody is going 80 and I am just over 3K RPM. There's something wrong if you're flogging 6.5KRPM just to keep up, unless your highways run at over 100MPH or something.
The power is one of my biggest complaints, I can't compare it to another 4 cylinder as I haven't had one besides this one in ages. It doesn't maintain speed on long hills at all.....WOT at 6,500 RPM to stay with traffic. My truck could tow this car up a hill faster!!
Something's wrong with your Corolla, unless you have something older than a 10th Gen. The only time I use WOT is to merge. I live in hill country. I have no problem climbing hills and keeping up with traffic. Local Interstate has 70MPH speed limit, has hills and everybody is going 80 and I am just over 3K RPM. There's something wrong if you're flogging 6.5KRPM just to keep up, unless your highways run at over 100MPH or something.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
They make vehicles that can tow 22,000 pounds, Have a 8 foot bed, Seating for 5?? Don't get me wrong....I like Mercedes & had a 300TD that was a really good car.
Well they don't sell as many cars and I don't think they do a pickup. They're just fun to drive as a used car due to the massive depreciation. My used E-350 was under 20k and I much prefer driving that to any Camry or Accord.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.
What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Boy you guys should start looking into luxury cars. Bought a Mercedes a few years back, it's been a blast to drive. Hasn't really been that much more expensive than a regular car. You do have to do your research though, I was originally going to get a 2006 E-350, but then found out the engines were bad and it was the 2008-2009s which were good. I think in general cars have just become a lot more reliable over the years. I remember when starters use to fail all the time, haven't had the problem in the last few cars I've had although alternators still go on a regular basis. I've just been avoiding taking it to the dealer and taking the car to an indy. Sometimes it's worth it at the dealer though, for some strange reason they tend to offer $100 or $125 off service every year or so and I take it in for stuff only they can do like firmware updates. All the options are fun and if they break, there's always the option of not fixing it. I think after 4-6 years, the deprecation curve slows down to that of a regular car.
They make vehicles that can tow 22,000 pounds, Have a 8 foot bed, Seating for 5?? Don't get me wrong....I like Mercedes & had a 300TD that was a really good car.
Well they don't sell as many cars and I don't think they do a pickup. They're just fun to drive as a used car due to the massive depreciation. My used E-350 was under 20k and I much prefer driving that to any Camry or Accord.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
And the reliability data comes from their subscribers so what incentive would they - CR Or the subscribers have to lie? I can think of a few reasons the "identical" car may not be "identical" or even if they were identical the demographics could skew the #'s. Buick vs Chevy for example. Or Lincoln vs Ford. Toyota vs Lexus. Geo vs Toyota.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
And the reliability data comes from their subscribers so what incentive would they - CR Or the subscribers have to lie? I can think of a few reasons the "identical" car may not be "identical" or even if they were identical the demographics could skew the #'s. Buick vs Chevy for example. Or Lincoln vs Ford. Toyota vs Lexus. Geo vs Toyota.
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Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
And the reliability data comes from their subscribers so what incentive would they - CR Or the subscribers have to lie? I can think of a few reasons the "identical" car may not be "identical" or even if they were identical the demographics could skew the #'s. Buick vs Chevy for example. Or Lincoln vs Ford. Toyota vs Lexus. Geo vs Toyota.
Well it could just be owner bias. Foreign car buyers may feel that their cars are superior to American cars so minimize the problems they have. American car buyers may feel that they got a deal, but the cars aren't as good as foreign ones so mark them down for every little problem. So all that bias ends up in the data.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
And the reliability data comes from their subscribers so what incentive would they - CR Or the subscribers have to lie? I can think of a few reasons the "identical" car may not be "identical" or even if they were identical the demographics could skew the #'s. Buick vs Chevy for example. Or Lincoln vs Ford. Toyota vs Lexus. Geo vs Toyota.
Well it could just be owner bias. Foreign car buyers may feel that their cars are superior to American cars so minimize the problems they have. American car buyers may feel that they got a deal, but the cars aren't as good as foreign ones so mark them down for every little problem. So all that bias ends up in the data.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
I do not think you know what GIGO actually means.
Survey research has been verified for reliable and relevant results. "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont... and if you look at CR, they do not report that data. Actually, they do not report vehicles that do not meet a given "N" to make it statistically relevant. That is why 2 of my 3 cars were MIA from CR for the most part DURING their production. So, the number of people "lying" about a Kia Sorento is so absolutely small and absurd (considering you have a pay-wall too) that that information is lost to the noise of the survey with little/minimal results. Have you taken a CR survey... you are not going to waste 30 minutes of your time lying about that Sorento because the more problems you claim, the more time it takes you. I have done large-scale surveys, normally, you are much more concerned over survey fatigue than misrepresentation in a survey. there are tricks and stat methods to account for these challenges.
How do they rank "identical cars" differently? I like the fact that they sometimes break-out power trains differently. That is useful. I wish they could track factories and components (via vins) as some models and sibling vehicles can be made in different locations. For example, you used to be able to get a Ky Camry or a Subaru-built In Camry. I was always curious about those. Even GM/Ford etc trucks can be built in different locations However, that would likely be lost for most consumers.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.
How so? They use actual owners to report on their vehicles. What incentive would they have to lie? Or more specifically lie than any other survey?
They rate identical cars differently. GIGO.
I do not think you know what GIGO actually means.
Survey research has been verified for reliable and relevant results. "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont... and if you look at CR, they do not report that data. Actually, they do not report vehicles that do not meet a given "N" to make it statistically relevant. That is why 2 of my 3 cars were MIA from CR for the most part DURING their production. So, the number of people "lying" about a Kia Sorento is so absolutely small and absurd (considering you have a pay-wall too) that that information is lost to the noise of the survey with little/minimal results. Have you taken a CR survey... you are not going to waste 30 minutes of your time lying about that Sorento because the more problems you claim, the more time it takes you. I have done large-scale surveys, normally, you are much more concerned over survey fatigue than misrepresentation in a survey. there are tricks and stat methods to account for these challenges.
How do they rank "identical cars" differently? I like the fact that they sometimes break-out power trains differently. That is useful. I wish they could track factories and components (via vins) as some models and sibling vehicles can be made in different locations. For example, you used to be able to get a Ky Camry or a Subaru-built In Camry. I was always curious about those. Even GM/Ford etc trucks can be built in different locations However, that would likely be lost for most consumers.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Well it could just be owner bias. Foreign car buyers may feel that their cars are superior to American cars so minimize the problems they have. American car buyers may feel that they got a deal, but the cars aren't as good as foreign ones so mark them down for every little problem. So all that bias ends up in the data.
Actually, owner bias is accounted for... it is called "owner satisfaction" but that does not really skew the reliability data. Actually, THAT is my biggest problem with CR's new system. However, Corvette owners (despite loving their vehicles) still report the reliability issues with the C7.
If you buy a Camry and you throw a rod, do you think you will "forgive" Toyota and leave it out of the survey? Own a Fiat with 200,000 miles and no repairs, are you leaving that out of the survey?
Nope.
It is the inverse actually. People are probably over reporting "bad" Toyotas and over reporting good Chrysler, but it is not really going to skew the data all that much. The over/under reporting is likely going to cause a wider range in the reports. So, when you look at this graph, the brands with the wider range probably have the biggest issue with expectation "skew". Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, Cadillac, BMW, Jeep etc. Makes that have more models and this have more volatility too... so that is kinda lost in the noise. Still, accounting for "customer satisfaction" makes the bias easy to address.
[removed copywrited material]
Here is the trick, look at how consistent Toyota and Lexus (as well as Mazda, Honda, Buick, and even MINI) happen to be. That tells you that the data is doing something right.
Well it could just be owner bias. Foreign car buyers may feel that their cars are superior to American cars so minimize the problems they have. American car buyers may feel that they got a deal, but the cars aren't as good as foreign ones so mark them down for every little problem. So all that bias ends up in the data.
Actually, owner bias is accounted for... it is called "owner satisfaction" but that does not really skew the reliability data. Actually, THAT is my biggest problem with CR's new system. However, Corvette owners (despite loving their vehicles) still report the reliability issues with the C7.
If you buy a Camry and you throw a rod, do you think you will "forgive" Toyota and leave it out of the survey? Own a Fiat with 200,000 miles and no repairs, are you leaving that out of the survey?
Nope.
It is the inverse actually. People are probably over reporting "bad" Toyotas and over reporting good Chrysler, but it is not really going to skew the data all that much. The over/under reporting is likely going to cause a wider range in the reports. So, when you look at this graph, the brands with the wider range probably have the biggest issue with expectation "skew". Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, Cadillac, BMW, Jeep etc. Makes that have more models and this have more volatility too... so that is kinda lost in the noise. Still, accounting for "customer satisfaction" makes the bias easy to address.
[removed copywrited material]
Here is the trick, look at how consistent Toyota and Lexus (as well as Mazda, Honda, Buick, and even MINI) happen to be. That tells you that the data is doing something right.
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Originally Posted By: dblshock
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
Paint on all three of mine are awful. The '99 has no clearcoat left on any horizontal surface, the '10 Tundra chips like crazy. The '11 has a number of chips too, although as a mommymobile it seems to attract door dings; its problem is all the swirl marks in the paint. I'm never sure if I should bother to wash it or not.
The brakes are so-so. The '11 had to have rear brakes at 60k due to a pad seizing; but the fronts made it to 140k and got replaced proactively (3/4 material left but delamination was occurring). I guess that's normal behavior. The '10 had new OEM brake pads when I bought it (CPO) and hasn't needed pads yet--but it seized a caliper last year, and IMO that's pretty unacceptable. [The '99 was bought used, with who knows what for brakes, so I'm not sure what to expect there.]
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
Paint on all three of mine are awful. The '99 has no clearcoat left on any horizontal surface, the '10 Tundra chips like crazy. The '11 has a number of chips too, although as a mommymobile it seems to attract door dings; its problem is all the swirl marks in the paint. I'm never sure if I should bother to wash it or not.
The brakes are so-so. The '11 had to have rear brakes at 60k due to a pad seizing; but the fronts made it to 140k and got replaced proactively (3/4 material left but delamination was occurring). I guess that's normal behavior. The '10 had new OEM brake pads when I bought it (CPO) and hasn't needed pads yet--but it seized a caliper last year, and IMO that's pretty unacceptable. [The '99 was bought used, with who knows what for brakes, so I'm not sure what to expect there.]
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
Paint on all three of mine are awful. The '99 has no clearcoat left on any horizontal surface, the '10 Tundra chips like crazy. The '11 has a number of chips too, although as a mommymobile it seems to attract door dings; its problem is all the swirl marks in the paint. I'm never sure if I should bother to wash it or not.
The brakes are so-so. The '11 had to have rear brakes at 60k due to a pad seizing; but the fronts made it to 140k and got replaced proactively (3/4 material left but delamination was occurring). I guess that's normal behavior. The '10 had new OEM brake pads when I bought it (CPO) and hasn't needed pads yet--but it seized a caliper last year, and IMO that's pretty unacceptable. [The '99 was bought used, with who knows what for brakes, so I'm not sure what to expect there.]
I think that was sarcasm, but not sure.... at least the first part. Toyota paint is about as soft as it can get. The clearcoat for that era was a trouble spot, but compare it to a Honda or a GM product and Toyota does not look as bad. Heck, I can go out and point at 2010 Honda products in my parking lot with clearcoat issues.
Toyota calipers really do have an issue with seizing, especially if they are heated up. My MR2 has had issues after autox. Also, Toyota's replacement parts are unusually expensive in this area for some reason so replacing those calipers with OEM can be a pain. I have also noted that those living in the mountains and can't understand engine braking have similar issues. It seems that Toyota has designed their brakes for "panic braking" more so than for long-hard use.
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Toyota's have phenomenal brakes and paint, best Japanese nameplate hands down..don't know much about luxury brands but Lexus is probably pretty solid in that segment too.
Paint on all three of mine are awful. The '99 has no clearcoat left on any horizontal surface, the '10 Tundra chips like crazy. The '11 has a number of chips too, although as a mommymobile it seems to attract door dings; its problem is all the swirl marks in the paint. I'm never sure if I should bother to wash it or not.
The brakes are so-so. The '11 had to have rear brakes at 60k due to a pad seizing; but the fronts made it to 140k and got replaced proactively (3/4 material left but delamination was occurring). I guess that's normal behavior. The '10 had new OEM brake pads when I bought it (CPO) and hasn't needed pads yet--but it seized a caliper last year, and IMO that's pretty unacceptable. [The '99 was bought used, with who knows what for brakes, so I'm not sure what to expect there.]
I think that was sarcasm, but not sure.... at least the first part. Toyota paint is about as soft as it can get. The clearcoat for that era was a trouble spot, but compare it to a Honda or a GM product and Toyota does not look as bad. Heck, I can go out and point at 2010 Honda products in my parking lot with clearcoat issues.
Toyota calipers really do have an issue with seizing, especially if they are heated up. My MR2 has had issues after autox. Also, Toyota's replacement parts are unusually expensive in this area for some reason so replacing those calipers with OEM can be a pain. I have also noted that those living in the mountains and can't understand engine braking have similar issues. It seems that Toyota has designed their brakes for "panic braking" more so than for long-hard use.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
But don't you also have to account for the readership of CR? It's not exactly a completely random sample. They may care more about a particular product and take better care of it. Maybe the ones who flog the car don't show up in the numbers. Sorta like how predictions through a telephone survey can be way off because owners of telephones act a certain way. It's selection bias and non-response bias.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
But don't you also have to account for the readership of CR? It's not exactly a completely random sample. They may care more about a particular product and take better care of it. Maybe the ones who flog the car don't show up in the numbers. Sorta like how predictions through a telephone survey can be way off because owners of telephones act a certain way. It's selection bias and non-response bias.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
But don't you also have to account for the readership of CR? It's not exactly a completely random sample. They may care more about a particular product and take better care of it. Maybe the ones who flog the car don't show up in the numbers. Sorta like how predictions through a telephone survey can be way off because owners of telephones act a certain way. It's selection bias and non-response bias.
CR has evolved a great deal over the years into the bible of educated upper middle class consumption.
There probably is some selection bias, but it is toward the more critical side.
These are people who expect flawless performance in the products they buy and who aren't inclined to accept alibis and excuses from dealer service departments. These are also not generally car people so the acceptance of quirks you find among car people is probably not a factor.
So, I'd say that any car which does well in a CR frequency of repair survey is probably a pretty good car while some that don't do as well might be perfectly fine for a more tolerant and mechanically knowledgeable owner.
At the end of the day, we all buy what we like within the confines of what we want or can afford to spend and live with it whether it be an older Benz or a new Subaru.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
... "Lying" in a mass survey is almost minimal to non-existent. Actually, the biggest issue with "lying" and automobile surveys is that "ownership" of exotics is the biggest issue. People will claim their own a Ferrari when they dont...
I'm not entirely sure, not when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Nope, not really.
Lying is almost non-existent in this type of survey. When it does happen, it is for "exotics" which are easily tossed out. It isn't data that can hide. People don't lie about a Camry or their 200, but they will lie about their La Ferrari. I doubt that CR has to deal with the 17yo claiming [censored]... that is for the youtube comment section.
But don't you also have to account for the readership of CR? It's not exactly a completely random sample. They may care more about a particular product and take better care of it. Maybe the ones who flog the car don't show up in the numbers. Sorta like how predictions through a telephone survey can be way off because owners of telephones act a certain way. It's selection bias and non-response bias.
CR has evolved a great deal over the years into the bible of educated upper middle class consumption.
There probably is some selection bias, but it is toward the more critical side.
These are people who expect flawless performance in the products they buy and who aren't inclined to accept alibis and excuses from dealer service departments. These are also not generally car people so the acceptance of quirks you find among car people is probably not a factor.
So, I'd say that any car which does well in a CR frequency of repair survey is probably a pretty good car while some that don't do as well might be perfectly fine for a more tolerant and mechanically knowledgeable owner.
At the end of the day, we all buy what we like within the confines of what we want or can afford to spend and live with it whether it be an older Benz or a new Subaru.
That list is bogus. It shows that the Mercury Mystique is better than the Ford contour.......... They are the exact same car (save for a different emblem.
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