Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Stupid electric water pumps comes to mind. Luckily the newer cars don't use them as the primary water pump anymore.

Yes, there is an electric one as well as the engine driven one. Both have been replaced as has the fan clutch and the fan itself (when an engine mount disintegrated and sheared the fan blades off, driving them into the radiator). Generally this common failure results in coolant loss and engine failure, but it happened at slow speed and although the radiator had a few wicked dents in it no coolant leaked out. There are a total of 13 coolant hoses I believe, along with the two water pumps, the crossover pipes, the valley pan, the electric water valve and the pressurized tank, all of which are potential coolant leaks. Oh and the heater core of course with its two water paths and three total connections.

At least the alternator isn't water cooled like the 540i...

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech

Stupid electric water pumps comes to mind. Luckily the newer cars don't use them as the primary water pump anymore.

Toyota's headed that direction already - the 3rd gen Prius(as well as the Prius C/V) use electric water pumps for the engine(along with the existing electric pump for the inverter, 3rd/4th gen cars don't use a coolant heat storage thermos like the 1st/2nd gen), supposedly the new Camry might use an electric pump on the 4 cylinder engine.

 

[javacontour]

I understand the motivation.

An engine driven pump that runs all the time uses some amount of power, even when not needed. Just like when we went from belt driven fans to draw air over the radiator to thermostatically controlled electric fans.

They were eventually perfected. I expect electric water pumps to also become perfected in the same fashion.

 

[kschachn]

When is the coolant pump not needed?

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
When is the coolant pump not needed?

When you first start the car in the morning, when the engine is cold.

Also, you can control the speed that the pump runs, unlike a conventional pump, which is dependent only on engine RPM. Cruising down the highway with lots of airflow, the pump doesn't need to turn very fast. Idling in traffic in the summer, the pump can speed up.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
When is the coolant pump not needed?


A great deal of the time.

Think about it. There is a thermostat to block the flow of coolant. Then, there is a pump, constantly working regardless the state of the thermostat. It's wasteful. The pump wastes energy trying to pump against a closed thermostat.

Wouldn't a better system be to run the pump at a rate that is appropriate for the volume of coolant that needs to be moved based on conditions?

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
When is the coolant pump not needed?


When an IC engine is cold, it is inefficient and produces far more emissions than when it is at operating temperature. The manufacturers want to avoid this inefficient and dirty-running phase. So, with the advent of on-demand electric water pumps, the engine will come up to operating temperature much more quickly if the water pump isn't circulating coolant through the system thus slowing the engine warm-up.

They market this feature as being better for the environment, and for greater occupant comfort because it can provide heat from the HVAC system much more quickly on a cold winter day.

Another benefit is the ability to match the water pump output with cooling demands. Without the steady and relatively high load from a mechanically driven water pump, some small gains in efficiency can be realized.

The potential downside is whether these electric water pumps will be as reliable as the generally very reliable mechanically driven water pump.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
When an IC engine is cold, it is inefficient and produces far more emissions than when it is at operating temperature. The manufacturers want to avoid this inefficient and dirty-running phase. So, with the advent of on-demand electric water pumps, the engine will come up to operating temperature much more quickly if the water pump isn't circulating coolant through the system thus slowing the engine warm-up.

They market this feature as being better for the environment, and for greater occupant comfort because it can provide heat from the HVAC system much more quickly on a cold winter day.

Yes of course but are you saying the electric pump would be off at first? Wouldn't you get hot spots in the block prior to full warmup that would have to be cooled? It would still have to be on but not circulating through the radiator, just like is done today with mechanical pumps. Also, if you want to heat the cabin you still have to circulate the coolant through the heater core, correct?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Think about it. There is a thermostat to block the flow of coolant. Then, there is a pump, constantly working regardless the state of the thermostat. It's wasteful. The pump wastes energy trying to pump against a closed thermostat.

Wouldn't a better system be to run the pump at a rate that is appropriate for the volume of coolant that needs to be moved based on conditions?

I did think about it, the thermostat doesn't block all flow of coolant only that portion that would circulate through the radiator. Does it really pump "against" the thermostat or does it just circulate it more rapidly within the block? You want the block to fully warm up as quickly as possible, wouldn't circulating coolant help that rather than hinder?

And perhaps a variable-rate pump would help, yes. I don't know about that.

 

[Coprolite]

My 1967 912 worked pretty well without a coolant pump.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
When is the coolant pump not needed?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
My 1967 912 worked pretty well without a coolant pump.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
When is the coolant pump not needed?

Answered strictly as asked that is true. But surely you aren't extrapolating that to a liquid cooled engine operating without a coolant pump, which is the situation in this thread?

 

[GenSan]

Before Japanese vehicles became main stream in North America they were built as economical vehicles for 3rd world countries. If you've ever traveled to Asian 3rd world countries you get a greater appreciation for how some of these Japanese econo "appliances" are able to withstand long service lives on less than ideal road surfaces and service schedules. 1st world cars live a pampered service life vs. those from 3rd world countries.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Think about it. There is a thermostat to block the flow of coolant. Then, there is a pump, constantly working regardless the state of the thermostat. It's wasteful. The pump wastes energy trying to pump against a closed thermostat.

Wouldn't a better system be to run the pump at a rate that is appropriate for the volume of coolant that needs to be moved based on conditions?

I did think about it, the thermostat doesn't block all flow of coolant only that portion that would circulate through the radiator. Does it really pump "against" the thermostat or does it just circulate it more rapidly within the block? You want the block to fully warm up as quickly as possible, wouldn't circulating coolant help that rather than hinder?

And perhaps a variable-rate pump would help, yes. I don't know about that.


Depends on the car and the cooling system.

Some cars do have a bypass. Others don't. The path through the heater core may or may not be open depending on if the driver desires heat or A/C.

The bottom line is with an electrically controlled water pump, you can control the volume of coolant flowing independent of the engine speed.

A mechanical pump is pumping and uses power regardless if it's needed or not.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc


Reliability can be a big decision factor for most. It is not a "minor" one. Still, it really depends on the buyer and it is often an inverse relationship with car expertise. The less you know about vehicles, the more important "reliability" happens to be. People want the reliability not only for the get to point a to b, but also avoiding the uncertainty or poor repair industry (because it is unknown and scary). Some folks (my wife included) treats the tire pressure warning light like the end of the world. I has someone return a fleet vehicle because the AC blew "dusty". This vehicle has just sat for a while near a construction area so it was dusty... but that made it undrivable. This type of "fear" drives people to try and reduce their risk.

...


That's true, I guess what I should have said is people are weighing perception/past reputation more than they are actual reliability of specific cars. And it's not that Japanese cars aren't good, they are generally speaking, but people who don't really look into cars tend to paint things like reliability and quality with a broad brush. Doing so doesn't reduce their risk as much as it placates their fears. Toyota and Honda both have much more variability in their reliability and quality since the late 90s/early 00s, and Nissan had some really rough years in the mid 00s and still has some issues.

Transmissions seem to be a much bigger problem area for Japanese cars than they used to be, especially CVTs. I quote/buy transmissions for Japanese used cars/employee cars at work pretty regularly, often with less than 100K miles. A lot of times even used transmissions aren't cheap, and they get snapped up quick. A customer waited about four days deciding on a low mileage used LKQ trans for a Lexus GS460 and lost it, I had to get one with higher miles. Not saying Ford or GM is any better at transmissions in general, just that literally EVERY mainstream brand has built/sourced some bad transmissions, and also built/sourced some good ones. I've also seen Lexus cars that weren't even 10 years old and the entire dashboard was covered in huge cracks (Lexus did fix those I think...kinda had to). Ironically some of the problems that are appearing with more frequency in some Japanese cars now are the same problems that were commonly associated with a lot of US brands in the 1970s-1990s, and never totally went away. Stuff happens with manufactured goods, regardless of where they come from.

I was born in '87 and my baby boomer parents were burned by a couple of Ford cars, a '78 Mercury Zephyr and a '90 Taurus. For whatever reason, my dad thought a Contour V6 would be a great replacement for the transmission-eating Taurus, and amazingly he ended up being right. The Contour was nearly trouble free until a bad wreck. It was replaced with a 2004 Civic Hybrid...which ate transmissions. Honda did cover them though, and the battery pack, and some other things... When the transmission and hybrid battery both started going out again at the same time and Honda's goodwill ran out, he traded it for a Subaru Crosstrek with a CVT. We'll see how that does. My parents bought a new Ford Ranger in 1986 that was a very good truck, and that did kind of solidify their opinion of Ford trucks and mine. They still have a Ranger...my mom's daily driver is a bright red 2011 4.0L.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.


What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.


What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.


What is there to like? Toyota doesn't even make a vehicle that fits my needs for a daily driver! And the Toyota I do have is a POS.
Modern Toyotas are really ugh.
Its probably hard for you to believe what I'm about to say, but it is true. Toyota used to make great cars. But that was in the early 90s.


Probably hard for you to believe but those are your opinions.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Japanese and Japanese only here.


+1
I only own cars with a "J" in the first position in the VIN


Do you buy your KoolAid by the drum, or in bulk from the tanker?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: funflyer
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
That is the most wacky survey I have seen. A Dodge Neon hasn't been made in what, 15 years?


That site is junk at best. They get "proprietary data" from auction cars and report on "drivetrain issues". So you get unknown data from the junkiest cars dealers see. And you don't know what that is. Is the CEL caused by a sensor or is it something more serious? You'll never know with that site. Quality "index"

For as much hate as Consumer Reports gets around here at least they break it out in the various components so you can draw your own conclusions.


Okay, here's some from Consumer Reports.





I have been to CR (BTW I am hiding in the "Talking Cars" 100th podcast video), and their database is a huge asset. Most folks don't really get how darn awesome their statistics and methods happen to be in the industry. I have had access manufacture customer databases that would not make cut compared to CR.

The only real mechanism that you can do to get better data would be a 1 in 10 vin reporting similar to airline data (yes, the airlines track every 10th ticket). Maybe Tesla is data mining better but they are not a 3rd party independent and I would say their data could be more suspect.


As for FORD, the can be as reliable as Toyota and as terrible as FCA. They have consistency issues that makes them a bigger dice roll in the used market.


CR has a very large GIGO problem, and has for decades.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
it's all the poor engineering elsewhere that drives people into a Toyota, there's quite a few serious lemons..who needs a problem when Toyota line is stellar up and down year after year.


Does Toyota pay you by the post, or the word?