Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: itguy08


In the case of Honda they have always been mediocre in the reliability front. People have been told they are great so they gloss over the major problems. Toyota? Not sure but I don't think they are heads and shoulders above the rest. But their stuff is just so God-awful boring.


I'm basing this on family/friend observations, but Toyotas tend to age better than Hondas do. My cousin has a 2004 Pilot that clearly has seen better days - it has 174K on it, mechanically it's in OK shape but it needs some TLC(valve adjustment, plugs, fresh fluids) and the interior is in bad shape. I had a 1991 Lexus LS400 with 120K more on it that was equal on the interior but the car ran good and the powertrain sounded great for its age. The older 1990s Accords and Civics were probably the most reliable cars Honda made, I still see them puttering about.

Akio Toyoda is making an effort across Toyota to upgrade them from being as exciting as a Maytag or Whirlpool, but he also is putting more effort into Lexus. The new Prius and RX are sitting on an all-new platform and supposedly it helped clean up the driving dynamics of the former.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep


Resale is a favorite line of salesmen that seems to go over well with the crowd that will pay an extra 10k or more for a vehicle and keep it 3 to 7 years. It's a horrible deal for them if you think it out, and even more of a financial ghost of a rip off if you keep your vehicle.

Now with the renewed push for subprime car notes and 72/84 month car loans, car salesmen are pushing resale value. In areas with high saturation of Uber and Lyft, that will hurt resale more thanks to high turnover - which means the repo man is coming to visit. For a while, Uber was actively pushing subprime car loans for their "partners" who needed a car. They still do - which partly motivated Toyota to take a stake in them.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: funflyer
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
That is the most wacky survey I have seen. A Dodge Neon hasn't been made in what, 15 years?


That site is junk at best. They get "proprietary data" from auction cars and report on "drivetrain issues". So you get unknown data from the junkiest cars dealers see. And you don't know what that is. Is the CEL caused by a sensor or is it something more serious? You'll never know with that site. Quality "index"

For as much hate as Consumer Reports gets around here at least they break it out in the various components so you can draw your own conclusions.


Okay, here's some from Consumer Reports.


I have been to CR (BTW I am hiding in the "Talking Cars" 100th podcast video), and their database is a huge asset. Most folks don't really get how darn awesome their statistics and methods happen to be in the industry. I have had access manufacture customer databases that would not make cut compared to CR.

The only real mechanism that you can do to get better data would be a 1 in 10 vin reporting similar to airline data (yes, the airlines track every 10th ticket). Maybe Tesla is data mining better but they are not a 3rd party independent and I would say their data could be more suspect.


As for FORD, the can be as reliable as Toyota and as terrible as FCA. They have consistency issues that makes them a bigger dice roll in the used market.

 

[Starman2112]

Quote:
Anyone that isn't a mindless drone would recommend a Ford over a Toyota or Honda


One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

 

[L_Sludger]

The acrimony in this thread is plunging it headlong towards enlockment.
FWIW a brand's goodwill equity, for example a reliability record, takes a long time to establish, and then similarly a long time to disestablish. So even if current gen Toyotas or Hondas aren't like their predecessors, the public memory might still recall the reliable record of the ones that preceded them over more than 30 years of excellence vis a vis poor quality domestics.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: DevilsRule
Originally Posted By: Starman2112
Why would anyone recommend a Ford over a Toyota or Honda? What did this lady ever do to you?


Anyone that isn't a mindless drone would recommend a Ford over a Toyota or Honda

Far be it for you to recommend a car made in Hermosillo MX over a car made in all-American, red-voting Kentucky (Toyota) or Ohio (Honda)

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

Far be it for you to recommend a car made in Hermosillo MX over a car made in all-American, red-voting Kentucky (Toyota) or Ohio (Honda)


So then the Focus with a 6 speed (Wayne, MI), Taurus (Chicago, IL), Escape (Focus with a cargo area) (Louisville, KY),C-Max (Wayne, MI), Mustang (Flat Rock, MI)

 

[L_Sludger]

I don't want a Chicago-made car

 

[fdcg27]

Well, this thread devolved into the usual ignorance is bliss brandfest in which cars that haven't been all that great since the nineties are somehow conflated into being extremely reliable while cars which have been really good since the nineties are downgraded as lacking reliability and durability.
Ponder this:
You can buy a '14 Avenger with well under 100K at auction for around four grand and they aren't bad at all to drive and will deliver reasonable fuel economy along with decent interior and trunk space.
However unreliable and lacking in durability such a car might be, you can do a whole lot of fixing for the price premium you'd pay for a Toy, Honda or Subaru of similar year with similar miles.
On a cost basis, there are plenty of better buys than a Honda, a Toyota or a Subaru.
One can also expect 150K of service with no major work out of anything built over the last twenty years or so regardless of make.
There are outliers of every make, but most cars will offer good reliability out to at least 150K.
This is reality, not the fantasies that many have posted in this thread.

 

[drtyler]

Well sell your newer Honda and Subarus and buy three Avengers. When they leave your wife and kids walking, remind them about all the money you have saved.

I have had very good luck with post-2000 Toyotas and Hondas.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Well, this thread devolved into the usual ignorance is bliss brandfest in which cars that haven't been all that great since the nineties are somehow conflated into being extremely reliable while cars which have been really good since the nineties are downgraded as lacking reliability and durability.
Ponder this:
You can buy a '14 Avenger with well under 100K at auction for around four grand and they aren't bad at all to drive and will deliver reasonable fuel economy along with decent interior and trunk space.
However unreliable and lacking in durability such a car might be, you can do a whole lot of fixing for the price premium you'd pay for a Toy, Honda or Subaru of similar year with similar miles.
On a cost basis, there are plenty of better buys than a Honda, a Toyota or a Subaru.
One can also expect 150K of service with no major work out of anything built over the last twenty years or so regardless of make.
There are outliers of every make, but most cars will offer good reliability out to at least 150K.
This is reality, not the fantasies that many have posted in this thread.

 

[dblshock]

who needs unexpected breakdowns and shop time, life's pace is too swift when the time saving solution is right at the Toyota dealer.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Well, this thread devolved into the usual ignorance is bliss brandfest in which cars that haven't been all that great since the nineties are somehow conflated into being extremely reliable while cars which have been really good since the nineties are downgraded as lacking reliability and durability.


Pretty typical.

I am of the opinion that everything has the potential to be a piece of [censored], and almost everything has the potential to be pretty good.

I think the best thing to do is to buy what you like and put your money where your mouth is. People buy vehicles for a lot of reasons and I think actual reliability is pretty low on the list, even if people cite it as why they bought a certain car. They probably didn't look into it that much, and couldn't tell you what specific engine/trans their car has, etc. And the difference is small anyway. There's nothing magical about a car being built in Japan. The Japanese-built Mazda transmission in my 23 year old Ford Ranger (truck assembled in Kentucky) is the worst part of the truck. I would probably be happier with a French-built A4LD in it. It does still work though, just not as good as the rest of the more than two decade old Ford pickup. The 202K mile 5R44E in my 2002 Ranger is supposed to be horribly unreliable...have yet to see it. I'll still mash the gas on a steep hill in that truck without a second thought. It has had one filter change ever, but multiple fluid changes.

Just buy what works for you. I don't even buy Rangers for reliability. I buy them because I like Rangers.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Ford made a big mistake using the DCT in their Focus and Fiesta. They still can;t get it right after a dozen attempts to fix it. Why not just use a regular automatic?

The Focus SFE sedan with the 1.0T is availabe with a 6-speed auto. They should just use that on all automatic Foci. Maybe they can swap it in the next time they recall the DCT.

Overseas, the Fiesta is available with a 4-speed auto. Swap it in the next time Ford recalls their DCT Fiestas.

Originally Posted By: bradtech
Those Zetec engines would run forever in the Focus. Only problem for me was the rest of the car kept having constant problems after 80k. I had an 04 Focus and 06 Focus. Got rid of 06 after transmission failure at 89k. Even had it serviced at dealer every 30k. 04 kept going without transmission failure up to 155k when I got rid of it. But I was on my 3rd alternator and had replaced a lot of things. My 93 S10 has held up better than any of the Focuses. In my experience it seems those front wheel drive smaller cars just aren't put together that well. Including the Hyundai Accent I got now that has been at the dealer 4 times before they would replace what needed to be replaced. Only after getting corporate involved & an engineer/upper level tech going out to do it from corporate. I'm sure it will be scrap before this 93 S10 is.




The best part about the Zetec is the constant thermostat housing failure. It will explode every 30k or so

 

[dblshock]

it's all the poor engineering elsewhere that drives people into a Toyota, there's quite a few serious lemons..who needs a problem when Toyota line is stellar up and down year after year.

 

[dblshock]

you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
you'll learn to like a Toyota for what it is, like the rest of us have.


That's a rather ominous way to put it. Makes Toyota sound like Soylent Green.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: drtyler
Well sell your newer Honda and Subarus and buy three Avengers. When they leave your wife and kids walking, remind them about all the money you have saved.

I have had very good luck with post-2000 Toyotas and Hondas.


You guys must have driven some real [censored] then. The last time I've been stranded was in 1996 or 1997 when the timing belt on my 87 Escort decided to up and die. That's the only time I was truly stranded as in "Call AAA for a tow". Rest of the time the issues got you home or to the shop. And cars have gotten much better over those years. Have mainly driven Fords with an Infiniti mixed in there for good measure. The worst was my 00 Explorer which was a POS and even that, when the trans went, didn't leave me stranded.

Then again I hope I never get so fed up with life that I buy a Toyota.

 

[dblshock]

'Then again I hope I never get so fed up with life that I buy a Toyota.'

More important things in life to do than fixing the car every day off.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
More important things in life to do than fixing the car every day off.


Can't remember the time I've done that either. Ok, it was in 2012 when I replaced the oil pan gasket on the wife's Escape to try to stop a leak (it was the timing chain cover) that was leaking a quart every 4k.

So tell me exactly why I should buy a Toyota? Cause my vehicles' reliability is perfectly fine, even as they age.

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: dblshock
More important things in life to do than fixing the car every day off.


Can't remember the time I've done that either. Ok, it was in 2012 when I replaced the oil pan gasket on the wife's Escape to try to stop a leak (it was the timing chain cover) that was leaking a quart every 4k.

So tell me exactly why I should buy a Toyota? Cause my vehicles' reliability is perfectly fine, even as they age.


I don't think anyone can convince you to buy something you don't want or like. By the same token you'll never convince me Honda and Toyota's are not reliable.

For me personally, I have had better luck with Honda and Toyota than with GM and Ford. Sorry but that has been my experience.

I think the big 3 make good vehicles and I'm especially fond of the so called pony cars. Currently I'm in the market for a V8 Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang GT. Wife likes all 3 and is ok with any of them. I think right now I'm leaning towards the Mustang or Camaro.