Honda 0W-20, 5742 miles, 2012 Civic (R18)
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OLM @ 15% TBN .02. Does that leave a safe margin to run the OLM to zero? I sure wouldn't, in fact even 15% is too close for my comfort based on that TBN.
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
I can't prove it, but I suspect this is due to the R-series' unique "semi-Atkinson" iVTEC system.
What are you referring to here? Are you talking about the way that the R-series may keep the throttle blade wide open and essentially throttle the engine with liberal use of the camshaft phasing system? Or are you talking about its ability to keep one intake valve closed at lower RPMs to achieve better efficiency?
If the former, then I agree that it's unique to the R-series engines (though I'm not sure how it would lengthen the warm-up time). If it's the latter, then it's not necessarily unique to the R-series engines, as the L- and K-series engines also utilitize that valvetrain technology.
If yours takes significantly longer to warm up, it could be a wonky thermostat. In this day of ever-increasing attention on fuel economy, I would expect a modern engine to warm to temperature very quickly. Have you watched the temperature with a ScanGauge?
I can't prove it, but I suspect this is due to the R-series' unique "semi-Atkinson" iVTEC system.
What are you referring to here? Are you talking about the way that the R-series may keep the throttle blade wide open and essentially throttle the engine with liberal use of the camshaft phasing system? Or are you talking about its ability to keep one intake valve closed at lower RPMs to achieve better efficiency?
If the former, then I agree that it's unique to the R-series engines (though I'm not sure how it would lengthen the warm-up time). If it's the latter, then it's not necessarily unique to the R-series engines, as the L- and K-series engines also utilitize that valvetrain technology.
If yours takes significantly longer to warm up, it could be a wonky thermostat. In this day of ever-increasing attention on fuel economy, I would expect a modern engine to warm to temperature very quickly. Have you watched the temperature with a ScanGauge?
I'm referring to the R-series' ability to keep the throttle more open (probably not wide open) while using a super long duration cam profile to allow the engine to pump some of the intake charge back out of the cylinder into the intake manifold. Since the engine is port-injected, I suspect this mode causes some minor issues with mixture when switching back and forth between normal and semi-Atkinson modes. You can often feel a slight stumble when you go back to the throttle after a period of light-throttle cruising. I suspect this is is the result of transition enrichment ensuring against detonation during the transition. Again this is only speculation on my part, but combined with cold bloodedness, it's the only thing I can think of which could account for the greater incidence of fuel dilution I perceive in R-series UOAs relative to other Honda 4-cylinders.
To be clear, I'm not saying the semi-Atkinson mode is the source of the R-18's cold bloodedness. Honda themselves say the semi-Atkinson mode is only used once the engine reaches operating temp. I have no idea why Honda chose to make the R-series so slow to warm up, I suspect the cause is the FI programming, but I don't know the reasoning. The slow warm-up is not unique to my car, there are several threads over on 8thCivic.com about it. I have not monitored through OBD II, but I doubt it's a wonky thermostat, if it were I'd never see operating temp in a MN winter.
The R-series is SOHC, and IIRC it does not have continuously variable valve lift, so the kind of throttling done by Nissan (Infinity) and BMW engines using variable cam phasing and lift is not possible in an R-series.
I call it semi-Atkinson because true Atkinson operation requires a double crankshaft. The "Atkinson cycle" engines in most hybrids operate all the time the way the R-series does in "economy" mode, they don't have an Otto cycle mode, and therefore don't have to switch between modes.
As far as I can tell, the R-series does not keep one intake valve closed to improve charge motion like the older D series and other fuel economy focused Honda engines. None of the technical briefs I've found mention this behavior. If you've got a good source that says it does I'd be curious to know. The R-series uses a variable length intake manifold to help maintain port velocity.
To be clear, I'm not saying the semi-Atkinson mode is the source of the R-18's cold bloodedness. Honda themselves say the semi-Atkinson mode is only used once the engine reaches operating temp. I have no idea why Honda chose to make the R-series so slow to warm up, I suspect the cause is the FI programming, but I don't know the reasoning. The slow warm-up is not unique to my car, there are several threads over on 8thCivic.com about it. I have not monitored through OBD II, but I doubt it's a wonky thermostat, if it were I'd never see operating temp in a MN winter.
The R-series is SOHC, and IIRC it does not have continuously variable valve lift, so the kind of throttling done by Nissan (Infinity) and BMW engines using variable cam phasing and lift is not possible in an R-series.
I call it semi-Atkinson because true Atkinson operation requires a double crankshaft. The "Atkinson cycle" engines in most hybrids operate all the time the way the R-series does in "economy" mode, they don't have an Otto cycle mode, and therefore don't have to switch between modes.
As far as I can tell, the R-series does not keep one intake valve closed to improve charge motion like the older D series and other fuel economy focused Honda engines. None of the technical briefs I've found mention this behavior. If you've got a good source that says it does I'd be curious to know. The R-series uses a variable length intake manifold to help maintain port velocity.
Originally Posted By: JOD
starting TBN of the Honda/Idemitsu Synthetic is quite low (5.2 via BruceT's Dyson Analysis).
Well that sucks. It's what was used in my insight, upto 500 miles. :-| So what's OLM at 15% mean?
starting TBN of the Honda/Idemitsu Synthetic is quite low (5.2 via BruceT's Dyson Analysis).
Well that sucks. It's what was used in my insight, upto 500 miles. :-| So what's OLM at 15% mean?
SnPb: If this pic is what your bottle of oil looked like, I have an identical one purchased from the Honda dealer (with a discount coupon, of course) and it says that it is an SN as in Single Nancy. Not SM.
Was that a typo?
Paul
Was that a typo?
Paul
Originally Posted By: PointFive
SnPb: If this pic is what your bottle of oil looked like, I have an identical one purchased from the Honda dealer (with a discount coupon, of course) and it says that it is an SN as in Single Nancy. Not SM.
Was that a typo?
Paul
Just to be absolutely clear - You've got a silver bottle of Honda Genuine Full Synthetic oil with rounded corners and no "strakes" which has an API doughnut on the back which reads SN (Sam Nancy)? You bought this from a US Honda dealer (not Canada)? I ask because it shouldn't theoretically exist. That's the Idemitsu bottle, and Philips 66 replaced Idemitsu as Honda's supplier in the US before the switch to API SN. (SM is the old revision of the spec) IIRC, Idemitsu still supplies Honda in Canada.
It's possible your dealer got a shipment from Honda Canada, or Honda's internal parts logistics ran low on the Philips 66 made version and shipped the Idemitsu made version instead.
That's twice in this thread people have referenced products that shouldn't exist. The OP mentioned a silver Idemitsu bottle Synthetic Blend 0w20 which nobody else has ever heard of. The simultaneous introduction of the P66/Kendall/Honda 0w20 blend was the first we'd seen any 0w20 blend. Maybe Honda is switching up suppliers again.
Just to run this to ground, Here's the bottle shapes/colors I'm aware of:
The Idemitsu Bottles:
I've never seen one labeled "Synthetic Blend" and I can't find any with Google image search either. The OP mentioned his receipt which may just be a misprint in his dealer's inventory system. This is how Honda's 0w20 came until about May 2011.
The Exxon/Mobil Bottles:
This is how weights other than 0w20 came until about May 2011.
Philips 66 Synthetic Blend:
The new Philips 66 bottles have sharper corners with "strakes". These started appearing in spring 2011, there may be some labeled as API SM, but most are API SN. The blend comes in black bottles in 0w20 and other weights.
Philips 66 Full Synthetic:
Same bottle shape as the P66 blend, but silver instead of black. They say "Ultimate Full Synthetic" where the black bottles say "Synthetic Blend".
SnPb: If this pic is what your bottle of oil looked like, I have an identical one purchased from the Honda dealer (with a discount coupon, of course) and it says that it is an SN as in Single Nancy. Not SM.
Was that a typo?
Paul
Just to be absolutely clear - You've got a silver bottle of Honda Genuine Full Synthetic oil with rounded corners and no "strakes" which has an API doughnut on the back which reads SN (Sam Nancy)? You bought this from a US Honda dealer (not Canada)? I ask because it shouldn't theoretically exist. That's the Idemitsu bottle, and Philips 66 replaced Idemitsu as Honda's supplier in the US before the switch to API SN. (SM is the old revision of the spec) IIRC, Idemitsu still supplies Honda in Canada.
It's possible your dealer got a shipment from Honda Canada, or Honda's internal parts logistics ran low on the Philips 66 made version and shipped the Idemitsu made version instead.
That's twice in this thread people have referenced products that shouldn't exist. The OP mentioned a silver Idemitsu bottle Synthetic Blend 0w20 which nobody else has ever heard of. The simultaneous introduction of the P66/Kendall/Honda 0w20 blend was the first we'd seen any 0w20 blend. Maybe Honda is switching up suppliers again.
Just to run this to ground, Here's the bottle shapes/colors I'm aware of:
The Idemitsu Bottles:
I've never seen one labeled "Synthetic Blend" and I can't find any with Google image search either. The OP mentioned his receipt which may just be a misprint in his dealer's inventory system. This is how Honda's 0w20 came until about May 2011.
The Exxon/Mobil Bottles:
This is how weights other than 0w20 came until about May 2011.
Philips 66 Synthetic Blend:
The new Philips 66 bottles have sharper corners with "strakes". These started appearing in spring 2011, there may be some labeled as API SM, but most are API SN. The blend comes in black bottles in 0w20 and other weights.
Philips 66 Full Synthetic:
Same bottle shape as the P66 blend, but silver instead of black. They say "Ultimate Full Synthetic" where the black bottles say "Synthetic Blend".
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