I remember living in Illinois in the early 70's when I was in grad school. Almost all of the guys who had pickups then used straight 20 weight year 'round. No problems...just better mpg and decent starts in the winter.
History repeating itself?
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I just find this kind've stuff fascinating! When I was a little kid I'd always take my parents' electronics and appliances apart to learn and see what made them work. I'd have them put back together and back in their spots without them ever knowing haha. Luckily I never broke anything 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just find this kind've stuff fascinating! When I was a little kid I'd always take my parents' electronics and appliances apart to learn and see what made them work. I'd have them put back together and back in their spots without them ever knowing haha. Luckily I never broke anything
You just think they didn’t know, they just kept quiet about it. I did the same things and years later my folks would spill the beans.
I just find this kind've stuff fascinating! When I was a little kid I'd always take my parents' electronics and appliances apart to learn and see what made them work. I'd have them put back together and back in their spots without them ever knowing haha. Luckily I never broke anything
You just think they didn’t know, they just kept quiet about it. I did the same things and years later my folks would spill the beans.
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Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just find this kind've stuff fascinating! When I was a little kid I'd always take my parents' electronics and appliances apart to learn and see what made them work. I'd have them put back together and back in their spots without them ever knowing haha. Luckily I never broke anything
You just think they didn’t know, they just kept quiet about it. I did the same things and years later my folks would spill the beans.
Haha!
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just find this kind've stuff fascinating! When I was a little kid I'd always take my parents' electronics and appliances apart to learn and see what made them work. I'd have them put back together and back in their spots without them ever knowing haha. Luckily I never broke anything
You just think they didn’t know, they just kept quiet about it. I did the same things and years later my folks would spill the beans.
Haha!
Originally Posted By: Boomer
I remember living in Illinois in the early 70's when I was in grad school. Almost all of the guys who had pickups then used straight 20 weight year 'round. No problems...just better mpg and decent starts in the winter.
Around the same time era when I was an apprentice diesel mechanic and dumping Rotella 40w into the trucks (and my slant six) one of the mechanics, who drove a chebby, said "you know the chebby calls for 20w from the factory". Could have pushed me over with a feather!
I remember living in Illinois in the early 70's when I was in grad school. Almost all of the guys who had pickups then used straight 20 weight year 'round. No problems...just better mpg and decent starts in the winter.
Around the same time era when I was an apprentice diesel mechanic and dumping Rotella 40w into the trucks (and my slant six) one of the mechanics, who drove a chebby, said "you know the chebby calls for 20w from the factory". Could have pushed me over with a feather!
I think the whole debate is rediculas. Engines are made better with controlled fuel and ever changing self tuning computers. That said I believe lighter oil is " tolerated" by the engine and fuel mileage is the main concern of the manufacturer. In my opinion your car will last longer and have less a chance of using oil with a thicker grade.
I have used 10w30, 5w30 and 5w20 with no real difference.
What I find aggravating is that people think 10w30 turns to a solid below 32 degrees and it's utter impossible to run a car in cold temperatures without a 20 wt oil. So many cars, trucks and equipment start below 0 with 15w40 or even 40 wt in the old Detriots. Doesn't do a thing.
I have used 10w30, 5w30 and 5w20 with no real difference.
What I find aggravating is that people think 10w30 turns to a solid below 32 degrees and it's utter impossible to run a car in cold temperatures without a 20 wt oil. So many cars, trucks and equipment start below 0 with 15w40 or even 40 wt in the old Detriots. Doesn't do a thing.
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Are people actually finding that thicker is protecting better? Or does thicker oil just "feel" better psychologically thinking it's protecting better?
Thicker oil means higher HTHS, which does protect better under more extreme oil temperatures. Higher HTHS maintains higher oil film thickness as the oil thins down from heat.
As has been discussed many times, if the vehicle is driven around in a benign way, and the oil never goes above 225 deg F you'll be fine with a good Xw20 oil. But switching from Xw20 to Xw30 will give a bit more HTHS headroom.
Are people actually finding that thicker is protecting better? Or does thicker oil just "feel" better psychologically thinking it's protecting better?
Thicker oil means higher HTHS, which does protect better under more extreme oil temperatures. Higher HTHS maintains higher oil film thickness as the oil thins down from heat.
As has been discussed many times, if the vehicle is driven around in a benign way, and the oil never goes above 225 deg F you'll be fine with a good Xw20 oil. But switching from Xw20 to Xw30 will give a bit more HTHS headroom.
I think that over the years, what we found out about thinner oils is that they do protect well even if they make the engines a tiny bit more noisy. Not loud but, audible. And even if the engines don't last 300K miles, they'll get close.
Where as thicker oils keep the engines quieter and the owners happier and the wear particles lower...even if only by a small margin.
Where as thicker oils keep the engines quieter and the owners happier and the wear particles lower...even if only by a small margin.
wemay
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A fair number of posters on bitog are fearful of fuel dilution and thus recommend one or two viscosity higher, even if uoa show great wear numbers as a trend. It's understandable. We are the "just in case" forum vs what Dnewton has been pushing for years..."making decisions/choices/recommendations based on trends in UOA data."
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: kschachn
It's ridiculous we need to start another thick vs. thin thread. That's the history repeating itself here.
Why not throw in MMO or Group designation while you're at it?
Agree.
+2
Originally Posted By: kschachn
It's ridiculous we need to start another thick vs. thin thread. That's the history repeating itself here.
Why not throw in MMO or Group designation while you're at it?
Agree.
+2
To me, it depends on the cam & valve train configuration and bearing clearances ... Old school flat tappet V8 with 0.0035 rods and mains, prolly wanna run something other than 5W-20
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Funny how those in denial yell "conspiracy theory" when their fragile world view is threatened with the truth. Heck, there are automotive engineers on record admitting the 20 weight oils are around for CAFE. At least it is entertaining.
“I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.”
Hmm, who posted this comment first?
The discussion was serious until then. Since you are “new” here I will take that into consideration.
Funny how those in denial yell "conspiracy theory" when their fragile world view is threatened with the truth. Heck, there are automotive engineers on record admitting the 20 weight oils are around for CAFE. At least it is entertaining.
“I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.”
Hmm, who posted this comment first?
The discussion was serious until then. Since you are “new” here I will take that into consideration.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
To me, it depends on the cam & valve train configuration and bearing clearances ... Old school flat tappet V8 with 0.0035 rods and mains, prolly wanna run something other than 5W-20
I agree. Each vehicle is different depending on build and usage.
To me, it depends on the cam & valve train configuration and bearing clearances ... Old school flat tappet V8 with 0.0035 rods and mains, prolly wanna run something other than 5W-20
I agree. Each vehicle is different depending on build and usage.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Funny how those in denial yell "conspiracy theory" when their fragile world view is threatened with the truth. Heck, there are automotive engineers on record admitting the 20 weight oils are around for CAFE. At least it is entertaining.
“I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.”
Hmm, who posted this comment first?
The discussion was serious until then. Since you are “new” here I will take that into consideration.
Aww geez, thanks.
BTW, I have talked to actual mechanics and even shop owners who offered this opinion on their own when discussing my wife's 2013 Mazda 3 and the lack of trans fluid change requirements, trying to find a shop that would do a D&F for me. The conversations drifted to oils, thin 20 weights, GDI and CVTs....and they all pretty much said the same thing. They all blamed CAFE standards. CAFE standards pushed by bunny huggers, like those that infest our state .gov.
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Funny how those in denial yell "conspiracy theory" when their fragile world view is threatened with the truth. Heck, there are automotive engineers on record admitting the 20 weight oils are around for CAFE. At least it is entertaining.
“I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.”
Hmm, who posted this comment first?
The discussion was serious until then. Since you are “new” here I will take that into consideration.
Aww geez, thanks.
BTW, I have talked to actual mechanics and even shop owners who offered this opinion on their own when discussing my wife's 2013 Mazda 3 and the lack of trans fluid change requirements, trying to find a shop that would do a D&F for me. The conversations drifted to oils, thin 20 weights, GDI and CVTs....and they all pretty much said the same thing. They all blamed CAFE standards. CAFE standards pushed by bunny huggers, like those that infest our state .gov.
It’s not an experiment and it’s not a conspiracy. It is law. Publicly available. Yes CAFE pushed OEM to improve fuel economy. Oil viscosity is one of many changes possible, but it is very simple to fill the crankcase with thinner oil vs designing or redesigning a new engine to be inherently more efficient.
Conspiracy theorists! Get off yon soapbox. It’s not a conspiracy when it’s out in the open. If you don’t like it, go vote.
Conspiracy theorists! Get off yon soapbox. It’s not a conspiracy when it’s out in the open. If you don’t like it, go vote.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember years back when I first discovered BITOG back in 02-03 maybe (it was linked from 3si.org,a 3000GT/Stealth forum),everyone was recommending thicker grades (10W40,15W40,15W50,20W50,etc). Then the shift to thinner oils took over (0W20,5W20). Now thicker oils (5W/10W30-0W40) are again getting recommended for cars that spec 20wts.
Are people actually finding that thicker is protecting better? Or does thicker oil just "feel" better psychologically thinking it's protecting better?
I think I always used thicker oils because I grew up around the old schoolers using them. I've actually gone to thinner oils and favor the results.
Let the discussion begin
Who is recommend thicker oils? All the ilsac oils are thin
I remember years back when I first discovered BITOG back in 02-03 maybe (it was linked from 3si.org,a 3000GT/Stealth forum),everyone was recommending thicker grades (10W40,15W40,15W50,20W50,etc). Then the shift to thinner oils took over (0W20,5W20). Now thicker oils (5W/10W30-0W40) are again getting recommended for cars that spec 20wts.
Are people actually finding that thicker is protecting better? Or does thicker oil just "feel" better psychologically thinking it's protecting better?
I think I always used thicker oils because I grew up around the old schoolers using them. I've actually gone to thinner oils and favor the results.
Let the discussion begin
Who is recommend thicker oils? All the ilsac oils are thin
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I recommend thicker oils when operating conditions warrant a thicker oil. Mostly racing, sometimes heavy towing without oil cooler. Air cooled engines that are run for long periods can develop oil temps 260-270F and need a thicker oil to provide adequate protection at those temps. Engines that have problems with fuel dilution can benefit from thicker oil. There is no one size fits all. For the average daily driver the thin stuff is ok and saves a bit of fuel.
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.
or....we are just old and refuse to move as technology changes...??
I think we are seeing the results of the experiment foisted upon us by the bunny huggers. Extended OCI to save mommy earth. Thin oils to meet CAFE standards. GDI/TGDI for making decent HP while meeting CAFE standards. Then along comes fuel dilution and LSPI.....as long as the engine lasts thru the warranty period, manufacturers are free and clear.
or....we are just old and refuse to move as technology changes...??
Originally Posted By: nap
As long as we conflate “adequate” with “optimal”, without even defining what “adequate” means in the context, all such discussions are doomed to fail.
The truth is ... Harvest King and Super Tech are "adequate" for 99% of the drivers out there.
The people spending $$$$ on $14.99 per quart ester based oils seldom even keep their car to 100,000 miles... much less 400,000 miles
As long as we conflate “adequate” with “optimal”, without even defining what “adequate” means in the context, all such discussions are doomed to fail.
The truth is ... Harvest King and Super Tech are "adequate" for 99% of the drivers out there.
The people spending $$$$ on $14.99 per quart ester based oils seldom even keep their car to 100,000 miles... much less 400,000 miles
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