"High Detergent" oil suitable for snowblower

[RenegadeX]

MTD dumped Tecumseh as their main small-engine supplier for snowblower engines this winter and went with a Chinese company's engines, which they've badged 'Powermore'. (Tecumseh is now closing down their small engine plant as a result as MTD also went with them for their summer lawn equipment engines too). I don't have one of these but as lots of people will be buying these products, so I took a read-through of one of their user manuals, and happened to notice that they (and seemingly they alone among snow blower/engine manufacturers) specifically call for a "high detergent" oil.

See:

I know a lot of (4-cycle engine) snowblower owners typically just use whatever 5w30 oil they use in their car, but not only do most new cars *not* require 'high detergent' oils but car engines and small engines have different needs. For example there's no catalytic converter on a snowblower so the API restrictions on ZDP/ZDDP levels in automotive oils over the last decade or so don't really have any relevance as far as the snowblower engine is concerned.

[Aside, can anyone explain why MTD/Powermore might, in their year 2008-printed operator's manual) be suggesting to use an oll that is (the ancient API spec) 'SG,SF'?? I know that whatever is the current API('SM') supersedes previous specs, but Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh, Honda, etc all suggest much more recent API-spec oils. Why the difference?.. does it indicate anything at all about the quality(or lack of) in the Powermore engine?]

MTD, Briggs & Stratton, Husqvarna etc sell 4-cycle "snowblower oil" .. which are synthetic oils. However while they are detergent, they don't say they are "high detergent". So while they're good enough for most 4-cycle snowblowers ever sold, would they be be good enough for these new Powermores??

I suspect they probably would be (especially if oil changes are done each year), and also that something like 5w30 Castrol GTX (which I've seen mentioned has 'extra detergency' as conventional oils go) would be sufficient, but better yet - pretty much any good 5w30 or 0w30 synthetic.

Thoughts?

 

[Cmarti]

I have chilton's manuals from back to the 70's calling for high detergent oils in small engines. My uncle used high detergent back in the 80's when I worked in his shop. I have been running lawn boys and tecumsehs in all my equipment but lawn tractors, so I have not read any recent briggs manuals. I will check my 1 month old lawn tractor with a 17.5 Briggs, and see what it says.

Are these engines the chinese honda clones? I actually had great luck with one in a portable generator. I still wish MTD would use an american company the way things are here in the rust belt.

 

[Johnny]

The question you should be asking is, are these engines good enough for the oil. Another reason I do not buy MTD products.

Now, back in the good old days oils were either called non-detergent or high detergent oils. They made a clear designation between the two so folks would not get them mixed up. Any current API SM 5w30 oil would work in those engines.

 

[RenegadeX]

^ I did!.. I said "does it indicate anything at all about the quality(or lack of) in the Powermore engine?". I personally don't trust the quality of most products made in China, but until we actually start seeing lots of user reviews of these products complaining about engine reliability or performance, it's not fair to *assume* they are no good.

^^I haven't seen them up close but I've read that the Powermore engines aren't direct knock offs (clones) of anything in particular, but that certain some parts might resemble parts used by Honda, Briggs or Tecumseh.

I posted the MTD/Powermore engine manual info in the 1st post, but just as a comparison, here are some others, and like I said note that they are all "high quality", "detergent" (not "high detergent") :

 

[Johnny]

I believe that Briggs & Stratton states it best when it says "Or Higher". At the present time SM is the highest rating for a gasoline engine oil and would be suitable for any of these engines.

 

[doitmyself]

I think Johnny's point is that you have non-detergent oils (still available today) and you have "high" detergent oils. All of today's modern oils are "high" detergent compared to non-detergent. Somewhere along the line, the companies dropped the word "high".

Your MTD description is just a hold over from the past (IMO), WHICH STILL SEEMS TO HAPPEN A LOT in outdoor power equipment AND agriculture equipment. I know that Kawasaki manuals still recommend SJ oils and I "think" that Kohler does too. They are the leaders in small equipment engines. I had a workplace Kubota compact tractor with outdated oil specs. as well as a John Deere. I scratch my head every time I read the manuals.

The debate whether today's SM oils meet the needs of hot running air cooled engines will continue until we get some real life experience/data. Kohler's brand of oil is HDEO/SJ rated, so they have one opinion.

In a letter from Shell, they told me SM will work fine in small engines, BUT, their HDEO Rotella oils would probably be better.

It boils down to personal beliefs and choices. I wouldn't dwell on the "high" detergent wording, and only lose a little sleep deciding on the SM thing. Cold starting is probably more important than high temp. concerns with a snow blower. And, occasional homeowner use does not compare to 8 hour/day commercial use.

IF you think these engines are more crudely constructed, this might be a case to follow the old ways and use a conventional oil for break in, before switching to a synthetic.

 

[TallPaul]

It's calling for an SF oil. Would think PCMO SM is not best choice, but Valvoline VR1 Racing oil would be great, or just get Valvoline 4-stroke snowmobile oil.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
..I wouldn't dwell on the "high" detergent wording, and only lose a little sleep deciding on the SM thing. Cold starting is probably more important than high temp. concerns with a snow blower. And, occasional homeowner use does not compare to 8 hour/day commercial use.


Absolutely. An MTD snowblower won't see nearly the use that a mower or any commercial OPE would see. Snowblower engines don't have air filtration either, so I can't see the use of a real expensive oil unless you live in the Arctic. If anything, high detergent oils might keep solids from settling in the crankcase of a non-filtered engine. These Chinese engines are somewhat like the Honda GX series, so IMO, owners will LOVE them over a flat-head Tecumseh powered machine. For those that don't live in -20°F temps, an off the shelf 5w30 is all you need. Maybe a synthetic 0w30 for extreme cold. Normally I'd say you can't go wrong with a HDEO like a 5w40, I can't see using that in an engine with no air or oil filtration in the short-burst conditions that a snowblower like this sees.

Joel

 

[TallPaul]

Actually I meant ATV oil not snowmobile oil but either would work.

Redline is a great oil for any air cooled engine. Depending on how much oil it holds, Redline could be an option. At $9 a quart, a half quart capacity would not be extremely expensive to run Redline.

 

[Pete591]

Does it get any better than this for a Snowblower for use in say 32*F to -10*F? Very high in detergency!

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asl.aspx

I use it in my 9 HP Honda Blower and it is amazing. In cold weather starts on 1/2 of a pull.

From -10 to -20*F a 5W-20 would be a better call I think.

 

[The_Jeff]

My winters go down to -25'F but you need heat to make precipitation... so most snow happens between 10'F and 35'F. Worth considering for your neck of the woods.

Looks like Ariens is having trouble finding engines because of the economy.

 

[Saturn_Fan]

I've got a 5.5 Tecumseh in my Troy bilt snow blower and have had easy and quick starts using 0w30 in -20F temps over the past couple years (2 pulls on the rip cord, I don't even bother with the electric start). I would use a synthetic 5w30 or a 0w30 in these little engines in severe cold.

 

[RenegadeX]

All of the above is pretty good info - thanks all.

A quote from MTD Canada's c/s rep in regards to the question at hand and clarification on whether the "MTD 4-cycle 5W30 Snowthrower oil” (Model OEM-737-0209, made by Arnold Corp, and which has been available for years, and which does NOT say “high detergent” on it) is still recommended for their new Powermore engines:
Originally Posted By: "MTD C/S"
All MTD snowblowers use 5w30 motor oil. Our Powermore engines are not unique; the Arnold Corp 4 cycle 5w30 oil is the recommended oil for all of our snowblower units.

 

[Cmarti]

Some research on the net on powermore, so take it for what it's worth. The snowblower copied much of Honda, the mowers have some traits from Briggs. Shop Techs are moaning, saying parts hard to find. The actually find Honda or Briggs parts to fit some application. i would love to find one and tear it apart.

My own observations from my ATV club(equally useless) is the Chinese engines put in name brand ATV's (many Japanese and polaris bikes) have worked well. Chinese engines put in cheap no name Chinese ATV's have had numerous problems. My own no name generator with it's jiang Dong engine has run flawlessly beside my Honda at mission work sites and power outages. It has
close to 300 hours on it.

If MTD stays involved maybe these will great competition for B & S. I just hate to see the loss of anymore manufacturing from North America.

 

[dwendt44]

There is some difference between Chinese (as in Taiwan) and Chinese (as in Communist China).
The Chinese scooters I see running around town are Taiwanese and seem to be decent quality wise.

 

[Bror Jace]

Guys, the reason SF, SG and other obsolescent SAE designations are spec'd is for the higher ZDDP levels. I like extra ZDDP in these applications, but the newer calcium, moly and/or boron-based additive packages seem to over-compensate for diminished ZDDP levels in the newer catalytic-converter-friendly oils.

I think the term "high detergent" is just a funky mis-translation ... or misplaced emphasis. Any detergent oil should suffice. Problem is, you run into many old timers who insist on running non-detergent oils in OPE. Old (bad) habits are hard to break.

I'm another that laments even more products being made in mainland China. In addition to the economic consequences for North America, the quality is a cr@pshoot. In theory, they could be just as good as any product in the world (OPE engines are rather simple things) but the Chinese are known for cutting every corner possible so unless MTD is all over them checking that the motors meet certain qualitative specs, they could be junk waiting to fail. I'll let others do the testing and will buy from more reputable manufacturers for the foreseeable future.

Back to the original topic, my suggestion is to run just about any 5w30 in these engines in a snowblower and change it at least once per season. You can't change oil often enough in OPE engines that have less than 10-20 hours on them. Leave the synthetics until a little later in the engine's life ... after the considerable break-in debris has been flushed out by frequent drains. The only problem with synthetics in new equipment is that you are tempted to leave it in longer ... and you are not doing the engine a favor when this premium oil is laden with many bits of metal shavings.

I tend to think synthetics are a waste anyway, unless you need the cold-temp starting performance. In that case, I'd probably use a 5W-40 HDEO as my first choice. For the very coldest conditions, I'd love to try Chevron Delo 0w30 ... but I have never been able to find this stuff in upstate NY.

 

[Bror Jace]

That's a really sad thing about Tecumseh. From what I've just read here, it seems their largest customer (MTD) drops them so they can't keep a large plant open with the remaining customers so they close, put a lot of people out of work and then other manufacturers like Ariens run into engine supply problems. That's great ... just great.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
Guys, the reason SF, SG and other obsolescent SAE designations are spec'd is for the higher ZDDP levels.


I think the actual reason you see specs as old as SF and SG is that the engine supplier has been printing the same little sheet since 1985.

Sometimes I think people put a little too much credit in the single sheet "manuals" that come with *some* of these OPE engines, particularly the far-east variety.

IIRC, ZDDP reductions only really come into play SL -> SM. Further, I haven't seen any evidence that a modern OPE engine, particularly the OHV/OHC variety, has cam systems that are any pickier than automotive applications which are perfectly happy with API SM. That being said, without cats to worry about more ZDDP can only help, and won't hurt, as long as proper change intervals are observed and the proper grade is chosen for the application.

 

[Bror Jace]

Craig, you see that SG specification in too many applications for it to be out-of-date text from a manual from one or two manufacturers. Not only OPE, but my 1995 Honda Civic spec's specifically SG motor oil for the transmission ... but a more up-to-date spec for the engine.

The key is ZDDP levels.

SJ was the spec when ZDDP really started to drop ... especially in Mobil 1.

I think OPE manufacturers, especially the ones for air-cooled equipment, know that these barrier adds are most critical when the fluid film is broken ... which happens under high heat and high load conditions ... common in small air-cooled engines that are pushed hard. They want that extra ZDDP in there if at all possible and since there's no 'cat to worry about, why not?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Looks like Ariens is having trouble finding engines because of the economy.

Maybe they could make a deal with Tecumseh and get the plant repoened.