Hidden Additives in Oils?
- Thread starter ZZman
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All oils have contents that do not show up on the type of VOA/UOA as you see here on BITOG. The base type, esters, fats, vegetable oils, etc do not show up on these V/UOA's.
To know for sure you would have to have the oil analyzed by a chemist who has access to the equipment needed.
To know for sure you would have to have the oil analyzed by a chemist who has access to the equipment needed.
Anything organic (composed of carbon)
Mostly ester and amine type additives.
Mostly ester and amine type additives.
I think those terms refer to the cracking/treatment process to produce the base oil. Also the oil testing will only find what it is looking for, so any suspicions on possible ingredients will have to be allowed for.TBN is rough indicator of lifespan of oil in use, also certain wear metals are looked for, and finally and dilution/chemisrty alteration issues. Some may need more info but these will work for most.
So counting out base oils and just thinking additives, are their any you know of that might be in an oil to make it perform better than another in various tests or conditions?
I know there are additive packages oil companies can buy. I wondered if they had their own special additive(s) designed into these or if they add something special of their own into the mix later?
I was thinking like the name of additive and what it might do?
I know there are additive packages oil companies can buy. I wondered if they had their own special additive(s) designed into these or if they add something special of their own into the mix later?
I was thinking like the name of additive and what it might do?
Adaptive molecules.
Lol
All molecules will "adapt" under certain conditions. Good one!
All molecules will "adapt" under certain conditions. Good one!
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
Lol
All molecules will "adapt" under certain conditions. Good one!
yeah, i heard this one on the commercial and thought, how stupid.
Lol
All molecules will "adapt" under certain conditions. Good one!
yeah, i heard this one on the commercial and thought, how stupid.
Originally Posted By: ZZman
So counting out base oils and just thinking additives, are their any you know of that might be in an oil to make it perform better than another in various tests or conditions?
I know there are additive packages oil companies can buy. I wondered if they had their own special additive(s) designed into these or if they add something special of their own into the mix later?
I was thinking like the name of additive and what it might do?
That is the substance of endless opinions and debate, strongly worded at times.
I have a pickup in my driveway with over 300,000 miles and a car with over 207,000 miles. Counting what my children and spouses have, we have around 2,000,000 miles on one oil. This oil is high in ZDDP(1200), it has MOLY(75) BORON(94) CALCIUM(2350) and a good 100C viscosity and a great HTHS.
I know it takes a balance of base oil and additive package to make the total product, but, I look for a 100C cSt that I believe will stay above 10 at the highest, not the average, the highest temperature my engine will see. I also want a HTHS of no less than 3.5. This combination has keep our vehicles running for +/- 2,000,000 miles since 1990 with never a leak, seep, no engine noises, no problems of any kind, and always better fuel mileage than the EPA estimates. This is my experience. I am sure, at least hopeful, that other folk have other experiences they are willing to share with you.
So counting out base oils and just thinking additives, are their any you know of that might be in an oil to make it perform better than another in various tests or conditions?
I know there are additive packages oil companies can buy. I wondered if they had their own special additive(s) designed into these or if they add something special of their own into the mix later?
I was thinking like the name of additive and what it might do?
That is the substance of endless opinions and debate, strongly worded at times.
I have a pickup in my driveway with over 300,000 miles and a car with over 207,000 miles. Counting what my children and spouses have, we have around 2,000,000 miles on one oil. This oil is high in ZDDP(1200), it has MOLY(75) BORON(94) CALCIUM(2350) and a good 100C viscosity and a great HTHS.
I know it takes a balance of base oil and additive package to make the total product, but, I look for a 100C cSt that I believe will stay above 10 at the highest, not the average, the highest temperature my engine will see. I also want a HTHS of no less than 3.5. This combination has keep our vehicles running for +/- 2,000,000 miles since 1990 with never a leak, seep, no engine noises, no problems of any kind, and always better fuel mileage than the EPA estimates. This is my experience. I am sure, at least hopeful, that other folk have other experiences they are willing to share with you.
300,000 with no leaks, seeps, noises, or problems of any kind?
Wow.
Wow.
I believe he's a former Mobil 1 user. lol
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
300,000 with no leaks, seeps, noises, or problems of any kind?
Wow.
1986 Toyota pickup truck. Bought new on June 16, 1986. Brought it home from the dealer and that day, while the oil was still hot, changed oil to Castrol 20W-50. I think I also switched to NGK platinum plugs. At about 20,000 miles Castrol 5W-50 Syntec became available and I switched to that. At about 40,000 miles Mobil 1 15W-50 became available and I have used it ever since.
I replaced the right rear axle bearing at about 120,000 miles when my father in law loaded 3200 pounds on it. I replaced the shocks at 100,000 miles. I replaced the voltage regulator at around 150,000 or so. I replaced the rotor cap and rotor button a couple weeks ago. It is on its 5th set of front brakes and second set of rear brakes. It has the original clutch.
This truck has made many trips to Ft McCoy Florida on fishing trips with a full camper. It has made about 65 or so trips across the Smokey Mts with a full camper pack and pulling a trailer.
The engine does not leak oil, none seeps out around gaskets, and it doesn't consume any.
Ever car, truck, and van since 1990 has had the factory oil and filter removed the day it was brought home from the dealer and Mobil 1 15W-50 and a WIX filter installed. I am especially proud of my daughter's Chrysler van that called for 5W-20 but had M1 15W-50. It had 190,000 when she traded it for a new Ford van a few weeks ago. Of course you know what the Ford has.
300,000 with no leaks, seeps, noises, or problems of any kind?
Wow.
1986 Toyota pickup truck. Bought new on June 16, 1986. Brought it home from the dealer and that day, while the oil was still hot, changed oil to Castrol 20W-50. I think I also switched to NGK platinum plugs. At about 20,000 miles Castrol 5W-50 Syntec became available and I switched to that. At about 40,000 miles Mobil 1 15W-50 became available and I have used it ever since.
I replaced the right rear axle bearing at about 120,000 miles when my father in law loaded 3200 pounds on it. I replaced the shocks at 100,000 miles. I replaced the voltage regulator at around 150,000 or so. I replaced the rotor cap and rotor button a couple weeks ago. It is on its 5th set of front brakes and second set of rear brakes. It has the original clutch.
This truck has made many trips to Ft McCoy Florida on fishing trips with a full camper. It has made about 65 or so trips across the Smokey Mts with a full camper pack and pulling a trailer.
The engine does not leak oil, none seeps out around gaskets, and it doesn't consume any.
Ever car, truck, and van since 1990 has had the factory oil and filter removed the day it was brought home from the dealer and Mobil 1 15W-50 and a WIX filter installed. I am especially proud of my daughter's Chrysler van that called for 5W-20 but had M1 15W-50. It had 190,000 when she traded it for a new Ford van a few weeks ago. Of course you know what the Ford has.
The Toyota allowed about anything bottled from a 20 to a 20W-50 depending upon temperature and use...300,000..still in use
Cavalier called for 5w30...207,000...still in use
Silverado called for 5w30...4,850...still in use
Pontiac called for 5w30....36,000...still in use
Pontiac van called for 5w30...170,000...traded this year
Jeep called for 5W-20...6,200...still in use
Chrysler just traded called for 5W-20...190,000
Ford called for 5W-20....7,000...still in use
Saturn called for 10w30...144,000...still in use
If I go back to 1990 when I started to use M1 15W-50 in everything, there was a Volkswagen, Mitsubishi, Kia, Daewoo, Camaro, Pontiac Grand AM, Corsica, Beretta, and a Neon. All had well over 100,000 except the Mitsubishi totaled at 62,000 and the Daewoo traded after third transmission replaced. The Beretta and the Neon had close to 200,000.
If I could find a 10w30 grade oil that had a 100C cSt of 12.4, MOLY but less than 100 MOLY, Boron but than 100 boron, 2500 calcium or better, a heavy FM package, I MIGHT consider it. I can easily get that and more in a custom blend but I would rather not.
Cavalier called for 5w30...207,000...still in use
Silverado called for 5w30...4,850...still in use
Pontiac called for 5w30....36,000...still in use
Pontiac van called for 5w30...170,000...traded this year
Jeep called for 5W-20...6,200...still in use
Chrysler just traded called for 5W-20...190,000
Ford called for 5W-20....7,000...still in use
Saturn called for 10w30...144,000...still in use
If I go back to 1990 when I started to use M1 15W-50 in everything, there was a Volkswagen, Mitsubishi, Kia, Daewoo, Camaro, Pontiac Grand AM, Corsica, Beretta, and a Neon. All had well over 100,000 except the Mitsubishi totaled at 62,000 and the Daewoo traded after third transmission replaced. The Beretta and the Neon had close to 200,000.
If I could find a 10w30 grade oil that had a 100C cSt of 12.4, MOLY but less than 100 MOLY, Boron but than 100 boron, 2500 calcium or better, a heavy FM package, I MIGHT consider it. I can easily get that and more in a custom blend but I would rather not.
'Just some things that an oil formulator must consider - in no particular order, a thrown together list:
VISCOSITY
Viscosity Index (VI)
VI Improvers
Viscosity Measurements
Viscosity Pressure Coefficient
Viscosity Shear Rates
POUR POINT
DENSITY
SPECIFIC GRAVITY
THERMAL EXPANSION
BULK MODULUS or COMPRESSIBILITY
GASES IN MINERAL OIL
Dissolved Gases
Entrained Gases
Foam
VAPOR PRESSURE
FLASH POINT
THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY
THERMAL CAPACITY/HEAT CAPACITY AND SPECIFIC HEAT
ELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVITY/ DIELECTRIC STRENGTH
SURFACE TENSION
CONTAMINANTS
Gaseous Substances
Solid Particulates
BASE OIL COMPOSITION
Oxidation Inhibitors
Rust Inhibitors
Dispersants and Detergents
Anti-friction
Anti-foaming
Saponification Number
Anti-wear
Anti-scuff
High Pressure
Oxides
Sulfur Compounds
Phosphorous Compounds
Chlorine Compounds
Et Cetera.
We have seen high titanium and/or high aluminum and/or high iron numbers in virgin oils. What are these additives? They are frequently associated with high wear in an engine. We see high sodium and/or potassium that we associate with coolant leaks. But they can be in virgin oils.
The oil tests we do provide useful information but it is only a very small part of the whole picture.
VISCOSITY
Viscosity Index (VI)
VI Improvers
Viscosity Measurements
Viscosity Pressure Coefficient
Viscosity Shear Rates
POUR POINT
DENSITY
SPECIFIC GRAVITY
THERMAL EXPANSION
BULK MODULUS or COMPRESSIBILITY
GASES IN MINERAL OIL
Dissolved Gases
Entrained Gases
Foam
VAPOR PRESSURE
FLASH POINT
THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY
THERMAL CAPACITY/HEAT CAPACITY AND SPECIFIC HEAT
ELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVITY/ DIELECTRIC STRENGTH
SURFACE TENSION
CONTAMINANTS
Gaseous Substances
Solid Particulates
BASE OIL COMPOSITION
Oxidation Inhibitors
Rust Inhibitors
Dispersants and Detergents
Anti-friction
Anti-foaming
Saponification Number
Anti-wear
Anti-scuff
High Pressure
Oxides
Sulfur Compounds
Phosphorous Compounds
Chlorine Compounds
Et Cetera.
We have seen high titanium and/or high aluminum and/or high iron numbers in virgin oils. What are these additives? They are frequently associated with high wear in an engine. We see high sodium and/or potassium that we associate with coolant leaks. But they can be in virgin oils.
The oil tests we do provide useful information but it is only a very small part of the whole picture.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
notice that Royal Purple has Synerlec and Mobil 1 has Supersyn.
What could these be?
Mr Haas has made a good list of formulation considerations above. Well stated.
Many companies have names for their pet additive package to make you think its something special or cutting edge, and some are, but very few.
Synerlec is the name of an additive package, whereas SuperSyn is the name of a series of base oils. Penetro, for example, is Schaeffer's description of an anti-oxidant and friction modification package.
Quote:
Do many or all of these oils have hidden ingredients
Yes you bet. And as we have stated many times a 30-50 dollar UOA/VOA will not show it.
But we physical/analytical chemists can find out what they are, down to the molecule or nanogram.
What are they? Well, that's why they are hidden.
But I can tell you (since it's public info if you know where to look), that aluminum and iron in a VOA is associated with such additive agents as anti-wear and anti-oxidants, respectively.
notice that Royal Purple has Synerlec and Mobil 1 has Supersyn.
What could these be?
Mr Haas has made a good list of formulation considerations above. Well stated.
Many companies have names for their pet additive package to make you think its something special or cutting edge, and some are, but very few.
Synerlec is the name of an additive package, whereas SuperSyn is the name of a series of base oils. Penetro, for example, is Schaeffer's description of an anti-oxidant and friction modification package.
Quote:
Do many or all of these oils have hidden ingredients
Yes you bet. And as we have stated many times a 30-50 dollar UOA/VOA will not show it.
But we physical/analytical chemists can find out what they are, down to the molecule or nanogram.
What are they? Well, that's why they are hidden.
But I can tell you (since it's public info if you know where to look), that aluminum and iron in a VOA is associated with such additive agents as anti-wear and anti-oxidants, respectively.
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Originally Posted By: FrankN4
The Toyota allowed about anything bottled from a 20 to a 20W-50 depending upon temperature and use...300,000..still in use
Cavalier called for 5w30...207,000...still in use
Silverado called for 5w30...4,850...still in use
Pontiac called for 5w30....36,000...still in use
Pontiac van called for 5w30...170,000...traded this year
Jeep called for 5W-20...6,200...still in use
Chrysler just traded called for 5W-20...190,000
Ford called for 5W-20....7,000...still in use
Saturn called for 10w30...144,000...still in use
If I go back to 1990 when I started to use M1 15W-50 in everything, there was a Volkswagen, Mitsubishi, Kia, Daewoo, Camaro, Pontiac Grand AM, Corsica, Beretta, and a Neon. All had well over 100,000 except the Mitsubishi totaled at 62,000 and the Daewoo traded after third transmission replaced. The Beretta and the Neon had close to 200,000.
If I could find a 10w30 grade oil that had a 100C cSt of 12.4, MOLY but less than 100 MOLY, Boron but than 100 boron, 2500 calcium or better, a heavy FM package, I MIGHT consider it. I can easily get that and more in a custom blend but I would rather not.
Don't you get a lot of valvetrain noise and wear when you start a car with oil that thick when it doesn't call for it? You've never had any problems with overheating?
The Toyota allowed about anything bottled from a 20 to a 20W-50 depending upon temperature and use...300,000..still in use
Cavalier called for 5w30...207,000...still in use
Silverado called for 5w30...4,850...still in use
Pontiac called for 5w30....36,000...still in use
Pontiac van called for 5w30...170,000...traded this year
Jeep called for 5W-20...6,200...still in use
Chrysler just traded called for 5W-20...190,000
Ford called for 5W-20....7,000...still in use
Saturn called for 10w30...144,000...still in use
If I go back to 1990 when I started to use M1 15W-50 in everything, there was a Volkswagen, Mitsubishi, Kia, Daewoo, Camaro, Pontiac Grand AM, Corsica, Beretta, and a Neon. All had well over 100,000 except the Mitsubishi totaled at 62,000 and the Daewoo traded after third transmission replaced. The Beretta and the Neon had close to 200,000.
If I could find a 10w30 grade oil that had a 100C cSt of 12.4, MOLY but less than 100 MOLY, Boron but than 100 boron, 2500 calcium or better, a heavy FM package, I MIGHT consider it. I can easily get that and more in a custom blend but I would rather not.
Don't you get a lot of valvetrain noise and wear when you start a car with oil that thick when it doesn't call for it? You've never had any problems with overheating?
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Reminds me of a member who puts something like 50,000 high speed, highway miles a year on his minvan using M1 0w-20 and 10,000 mi OCI. He also claimed no mechanical issues, no consumption.
0w-20 and 15w-50 must use secret "additive agents as anti-wear and anti-oxidants."
0w-20 and 15w-50 must use secret "additive agents as anti-wear and anti-oxidants."
"Don't you get a lot of valvetrain noise and wear when you start a car with oil that thick when it doesn't call for it? You've never had any problems with overheating?"
We have never had any kind of mechanical problems, no valvetrain noise, no piston slap, no knocking, no abnormal noise of any kind. In fact, the engines are exceptionally quiet. Gas mileage has always exceeded EPA estimates.
I think wear speaks for itself. I like to put one of the spark plug hole compression testers into the Toyota and show people it is still within +/- specs for a new engine.
The Toyota with a full camper pack and pulling a trailer across the Smokey Mts of Tennessee and North Carolin got up to 231F on one bad July day. There is a thread here on BITOG, somewhere in the last few months that says the difference in frictional temperatures between a 5W-20 and a 15W-50 SYNTHETIC is on the order of 3F. I am trying to find it. I think the discussion was actually on friction modifiers
We have had two 0F mornings recently and the Cavalier with 207,000 15W-50 miles started literally before you can release the key.
If someone could show me absolute indisputable evidence that a 30 grade oil would give better protection, longer engine life, more total miles, I would change tomorrow. I am not hard headed or cultic.
We have never had any kind of mechanical problems, no valvetrain noise, no piston slap, no knocking, no abnormal noise of any kind. In fact, the engines are exceptionally quiet. Gas mileage has always exceeded EPA estimates.
I think wear speaks for itself. I like to put one of the spark plug hole compression testers into the Toyota and show people it is still within +/- specs for a new engine.
The Toyota with a full camper pack and pulling a trailer across the Smokey Mts of Tennessee and North Carolin got up to 231F on one bad July day. There is a thread here on BITOG, somewhere in the last few months that says the difference in frictional temperatures between a 5W-20 and a 15W-50 SYNTHETIC is on the order of 3F. I am trying to find it. I think the discussion was actually on friction modifiers
We have had two 0F mornings recently and the Cavalier with 207,000 15W-50 miles started literally before you can release the key.
If someone could show me absolute indisputable evidence that a 30 grade oil would give better protection, longer engine life, more total miles, I would change tomorrow. I am not hard headed or cultic.
Frank, YOu have had excellent results with 15w50. It is hard to argue with success. I myself have ran many offraod miles under heavy load with 30 wt and I am now expirimenting with 20 wt in these applications. Both our examples are personal experience. My belief is that newer enginese are already low friction low pressure in design. With the low spring pressures in the valvetrains or rollerized valvetrains I can see no advantage in pumping around thicker oil. I can not challenge you for sticking with what works. If you ever want to step into the thin side I will support you in that experience as well.
I have found that I have little power of persuasion on the internet. I get plenty of credibility in my profession so all I can suggest is to keep an open mind and I do find your vehicle maintenencae and serrvice history intriging and credible.
I have found that I have little power of persuasion on the internet. I get plenty of credibility in my profession so all I can suggest is to keep an open mind and I do find your vehicle maintenencae and serrvice history intriging and credible.
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