Hertz to sell used Teslas at Fire Sale Prices

[Trav]

What good would that do me? I just got a warning ticket for 42 in a 35, 3 warnings the license is gone.
Bad weather, over zealous cops, horrible roads is no place for a fast car or a car with a battery under the car.
The fact that Tesla S is 11 years old is telling, you cant speak about data with 20K on the clock.

 

[Ws6]

Batteries wear out, there is no way around that fact. It might make it 8/100, but at that point it's on borrowed time.

I mean, so do engines...you don't think those last forever if you drive them? Now if you're buying it to mothball, sure, you've got a point.

 

[Ws6]

The very early ones will be junk. Really Beta test cars sold to the public during learning curve.

The next gen will have a battery that lasts a very long time. Like the original Prius - Engineering got to design and build it.

The generation after that will controlled by accountants, every part will be "value Engineered" and planned obsolescence will be in full play.

I am not smart enough to know where we are in that cycle with EV's - but that is the cycle of pretty much everything.

I know lots of people are 100-150k miles on ev6 now and 5-8% degredation when measured precisely seems to be the thing, with "its the same as new" being the informal consensus among casuals.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I know lots of people are 100-150k miles on ev6 now and 5-8% degredation when measured precisely seems to be the thing, with "its the same as new" being the informal consensus among casuals.

EV6 has been around less than 3 years. Its not the same to run anything constantly - ICE or battery, get to 150K and say "see, good for 150K". Materials degrade based on time and use. The average new car gets driven 13,500 miles a year approximately.

 

[Ws6]

I assume the cars tell you the state of the battery, yes?? So if I considered buying used and the guy says battery is at 95% they could verify?
Is there a hack to essentially roll the miles back on the battery life status?? LOL

No. If the battery is measured, its measured. Thats like saying the car was programmed to fake leakdown %. Not a thing because physics.

 

[Ws6]

EV6 has been around less than 3 years. Its not the same to run anything constantly - ICE or battery, get to 150K and say "see, good for 150K". Materials degrade based on time and use. The average new car gets driven 13,500 miles a year approximately.

We already know how batteries do with time, so that's settled. The mileage settles how this pack in this car is thermally managed and how well the bms does.

 

[SC Maintenance]

We already know how batteries do with time, so that's settled. The mileage settles how this pack in this car is thermally managed and how well the bms does.

Batteries degrade over time, including lithium batteries.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What good would that do me? I just got a warning ticket for 42 in a 35, 3 warnings the license is gone.
Bad weather, over zealous cops, horrible roads is no place for a fast car or a car with a battery under the car.
The fact that Tesla S is 11 years old is telling, you cant speak about data with 20K on the clock.

Of course, and I wasn't. I posted a survey of millions of cars over more than 10 years.
I am not posting "What I think", or a 1 off. I am posting real world surveys.

From the survey cited in my post #73:
"In fact, in one big study we cover below a Tesla battery seems to degrade only 7% over 220,000 miles of use. Similarly, in a second big study degradation of only 7% happens over 8 years of driving."

Don't take my word for it. The multiple studies are there, for your review.

Regarding the Taycan, I thought you might enjoy seeing this beautiful car. The neighbor at the end of the block just picked it up. It's stunning.

 

[Ws6]

Batteries degrade over time, including lithium batteries.

I mean, yes, but so does everything. Unless you're buying an heirloom of a car, who cares.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Batteries degrade over time, including lithium batteries.

Of course. Cars as a whole are consumable products; they have a lifespan.
The issue here is people seem to think EV batteries die soon after the warranty expires, if they even last that long.
People keep posting this with zero evidence.
Some are better than others, like cars in general. But the current data clearly suggests, over more than 10 years, that the batteries last far longer than originally thought.

Again, if EV batteries were croaking that soon, wouldn't we be hearing it all over the news?

Here's a recent C&D article on battery degradation. It points out that Tesla will replace the battery, not if it fails, but if it degrades below spec. And it has proven to be a safe bet.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Again, if EV batteries were croaking that soon, wouldn't we be hearing it all over the news?

We don't know, they haven't been around long enough.

Anyone that says they will last forever is about as believable as the people that say they last 8 years and a day.

Reality is also more likely some will be much better than others.

 

[JeffKeryk]

We don't know, they haven't been around long enough.

Anyone that says they will last forever is about as believable as the people that say they last 8 years and a day.

Reality is also more likely some will be much better than others.

Disagree. I have not seen any study showing poor battery life, at least for Teslas. The early Leaf, was, of course, a disaster.
The articles I cited use over 10 years of data. Of course over time more data will be available and one would guess batteries will get better, at least marginally.

I have not heard anyone say an EV battery will last forever... That's ridiculous.
Certainly some brands will fare better than others, just like ICE cars or really any product. A key reason I will only buy a Tesla is they have the history, install base and seem to have the best electric drivetrain including batteries. Plus they are made in America, right up the road from here.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Disagree. I have not seen any study showing poor battery life, at least for Teslas. The early Leaf, was, of course, a disaster.
The articles I cited use over 10 years of data. Of course over time more data will be available and one would guess batteries will get better, at least marginally.

I have not heard anyone say an EV battery will last forever... That's ridiculous.
Certainly some brands will fare better than others, just like ICE cars or really any product. A key reason I will only buy a Tesla is they have the history, install base and seem to have the best electric drivetrain including batteries. Plus they are made in America, right up the road from here.

My comment wasn't directed at you. And yes, another poster on this thread all but told me its already decided EV batteries will outlive ICE. Its a few posts up.

I read your article, and he studied 500 cars. The Vast majority of even that small sample was under 60K miles. You really can't infer much from it IMHO.

How many cars of the same era already had problems that were not studied? Demming would say he doesn't have data, he has a survey, which is another way to say opinions. Its flawed. The sample is skewed. The sample is small. The sample is self selecting.

How many of the original Nissan Leaf's with the crappy Panasonic cells are still out there? If I went and studied the original Nissan Leaf would my survey be the same? Of course not. But its equally faulty as the one you site?

In my footer I have an Xterra that now has 400K on it. I know via a owners forum a lot of guys that have really high mileage Xterra's. Can you survey that group and infer all Xterra's will last 400K? Of course not.

In some years we will see. We can match a large enough sample that is not self selecting and call it data. Until then were making guesses, much like the CEO of Hertz did when he bought all those Tesla's.

 

[Ws6]

Disagree. I have not seen any study showing poor battery life, at least for Teslas. The early Leaf, was, of course, a disaster.
The articles I cited use over 10 years of data. Of course over time more data will be available and one would guess batteries will get better, at least marginally.

I have not heard anyone say an EV battery will last forever... That's ridiculous.
Certainly some brands will fare better than others, just like ICE cars or really any product. A key reason I will only buy a Tesla is they have the history, install base and seem to have the best electric drivetrain including batteries. Plus they are made in America, right up the road from here.

The tesla model s in the mid to late teens had bad battery issues.

The Plaid and now Ludacris motors are good, but the others are not special. Their battery packs seem to be decent overall, but not superior, and are far less serviceable.

 

[PandaBear]

Large part of the issue is Tesla started cutting prices on new cars, leaving Hertz in a lurch trying to sell used cars at reduced. It fact Hertz CEO slammed Musk and broken promises which included(lack of better word) the reduced price of new Tesla's was killing them on resale value. Meaning Hertz was forced into almost liquidated prices compared to what the initial price they paid for the car knew.
AND ... repair part prices were off the wall, long delays waiting for parts too. It was a failed experiment by Hertz.
That was then and now, it seems EV sales growth has fallen flat on its face to add more to the losses.

I don't really blame Musk, his job to sell cars, it was Hertz job to do their do diligence ... like I tell someone who moves into an HOA then complains *LOL*
Bottom line, Hertz made the mistake of trusting Musk's words rather than their own due diligence is the way I see it.

That's on Hertz to be so naive. If they want Elon to guarantee the resell they should have LEASED those cars with a buy out price at the end. This way they have the flexibility to keep / sell / return.

Obviously they want a discount and therefore just bought them, and are now holding the bag. The accountants didn't do their jobs.

 

[PandaBear]

Battery replacement is a huge expense. There will be a lot of dead EV's nobody wants..

They will turn into homeless cars parking at charging spot overnights when the range is low enough and the used car price is low enough. Leaf is a bit small but when the larger EVs become old, they would replace those Camry wagons today as the homeless choice.

 

[demarpaint]

Well battery life came up and it's valid. It is funny how quickly people forgot the cold weather range loss, and charging problems many people had with them this past winter when they jump in to defend battery life. I recall the discussion, I can't imagine all of those people who made the news and had complaints were stupid or didn't know the cold weather issues with their EVs. To me they are still clearly not ready for prime time and Hertz is just another example of learning the hard way. JMO

 

[Trav]

When I see stuff like this I have to wonder if owners of these vehicle realize just how bad they are being scammed with these batteries.

 

[demarpaint]

When I see stuff like this I have to wonder if owners of these vehicle realize just how bad they are being scammed with these batteries.

What a crock! The replacement battery will never be as good as the battery it had when it was new according to him. I'd have them toss another re-manufactured battery in it and put a for sale sign on it as soon as I got it home. He's a glutton for punishment.

 

[Ws6]

Well battery life came up and it's valid. It is funny how quickly people forgot the cold weather range loss, and charging problems many people had with them this past winter when they jump in to defend battery life. I recall the discussion, I can't imagine all of those people who made the news and had complaints were stupid or didn't know the cold weather issues with their EVs. To me they are still clearly not ready for prime time and Hertz is just another example of learning the hard way. JMO

It only got down to -10f or so last year here, but no, I had no issues.