Here I go again.New ford truck burning 5w20 oil.

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: skyship
engines serviced correctly will still be running in another 10 years. Clean oil filters are far less efficient than dirty ones and if you keep changing oil because it's cheap thin stuff the wear factors increase, although that story is more about filters than oil.


Who wants to bet this car ran bulk 5w20:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town Car/MISSISSAUGA/Ontario/19_6367719_/?showcpo=ShowCPO

This is a Ford 4.6L Modular, the same engine family as the V10 we are discussing. 865,227Km.

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town...showcpo=ShowCPO

449,891Km

As I mentioned before, I've seen examples for sale with over a million Km's on them, the last one having 1.2 million on it, original engine and transmission.

So regardless of your posturing, the real world experience with this engine family doesn't seem to support your position

Also, F-150 w/400,000 on it:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Ford/F-150/S...showcpo=ShowCPO

F-150 w/500,000 on it:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Ford/F-150/I...showcpo=ShowCPO


There are PLENTY of examples out there......

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
engines serviced correctly will still be running in another 10 years. Clean oil filters are far less efficient than dirty ones and if you keep changing oil because it's cheap thin stuff the wear factors increase, although that story is more about filters than oil.


Who wants to bet this car ran bulk 5w20:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town Car/MISSISSAUGA/Ontario/19_6367719_/?showcpo=ShowCPO

(Scroll down to bottom of page)

This is a Ford 4.6L Modular, the same engine family as the V10 we are discussing. 865,227Km.

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town...showcpo=ShowCPO

449,891Km

As I mentioned before, I've seen examples for sale with over a million Km's on them, the last one having 1.2 million on it, original engine and transmission.

So regardless of your posturing, the real world experience with this engine family doesn't seem to support your position

Also, F-150 w/400,000 on it:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Ford/F-150/S...showcpo=ShowCPO

F-150 w/500,000 on it:

http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Ford/F-150/I...showcpo=ShowCPO


There are PLENTY of examples out there......



I don't see what the relevance is of all the links, as you don't know which oil and filter or what OCI's they were doing. US highway driving is real easy on an engine and you don't have emissions tests outside California.
Blackstones has a UOA from a Nissan truck that did 122,635 miles on a factory fill full synthetic oil on their web site that never had an oil or filter change over the 15 years it took to clock the miles up. It did not leak or burn oil and the engine is not damaged. Fully synthetic G4 5/40 and a real good oil filter:

NISSAN 5/40 UOA

One of the best tests of a good engine, oil and filter combination is simply seeing what happens when you don't change the oil. I wonder how long a V10 would last on a cheap 5/20 and a can of blotting paper.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: skyship

I don't see what the relevance is of all the links, as you don't know which oil and filter or what OCI's they were doing. US highway driving is real easy on an engine and you don't have emissions tests outside California.


That's news to the rest of us that actually live in the US! Am I exempt from emissions testing if I print out your internet post?

Originally Posted By: skyship
Blackstones has a UOA from a Nissan truck that did 122,635 miles on a factory fill full synthetic oil on their web site that never had an oil or filter change over the 15 years it took to clock the miles up. It did not leak or burn oil and the engine is not damaged. Fully synthetic G4 5/40 and a real good oil filter:

NISSAN 5/40 UOA

One of the best tests of a good engine, oil and filter combination is simply seeing what happens when you don't change the oil. I wonder how long a V10 would last of a cheap 5/20 and a can of blotting paper.


Nissan used a full-synthetic 5W40, as factory fill? That's news, too! Also, do you think that ANY of the original oil was in the vehicle? Either several dozen qts. of makeup oil were used, or the truck would have been dead long ago.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: skyship

I don't see what the relevance is of all the links, as you don't know which oil and filter or what OCI's they were doing.


Oil was likely bulk 5w20, which is what most of the fleets run in the Modulars, filter was probably whatever the cheapest they could get. OCI was probably 5-7,000Km.

The relevance is that you were speaking German Ford Modular owners running these engines "10 years down the road" as if they were the only ones capable of high mileage. This is wholly incorrect, this engine family, in general, particularly in fleet service ROUTINELY racks up insanely high mileage without having a specific "German owner" maintenance regiment. These examples I cited are real-world proof of that.

Quote:
US highway driving is real easy on an engine and you don't have emissions tests outside California.


I live in Canada, and those examples cited were from Canada. We have emissions testing semi-annually.

Quote:
Blackstones has a UOA from a Nissan truck that did 122,635 miles on a factory fill full synthetic oil on their web site that never had an oil or filter change over the 15 years it took to clock the miles up. It did not leak or burn oil and the engine is not damaged. Fully synthetic G4 5/40 and a real good oil filter:

NISSAN 5/40 UOA


This story:

Quote:
We’re anonymous here, so we’ll call the characters in this true story “Dad” and “Sonny.” Dad doesn’t believe in oil changes, so Sonny
“borrowed” the truck one day and got us a sample. Sonny told his dad the truck was leaking oil in his driveway while he was unloading stuff
from Home Depot (it wasn’t), so while he had it he “fixed” the leak and changed the oil. Dad grumbled and said he should have left it alone,
but agreed it was time. This is factory oil in Dad’s 1997 Nissan pickup truck with 122,635 miles on it. And you know, for an oil that’s been in
place as long as this one has, the oil doesn’t look half bad. It was thick, like a 15W/40. Fuel was present, though without trends we don’t
know if that’s a temporary thing or if it’s always present. Bearing wear (copper, lead, and tin) is heavy, as is upper-end wear (aluminum and
iron), but the rings (chrome) are wearing well. Sonny says the engine starts easier now and it isn’t as labored as it was when it runs. We’re not
sure if these results are a testament to Nissan’s engineering or Dad’s good driving, but either way, next time you get worried that it’s been six
months since you changed your oil, you can remember Sonny and Dad and breathe a little easier!


Do you honestly believe there was no make-up oil added in 122,00 miles? If so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Even if that engine had an extremely conservative consumption rate, assuming the dad topped it up, there would have been next to none of the original oil left in the sump. He probably topped it up with cheap bulk 15w40......

Quote:
One of the best tests of a good engine, oil and filter combination is simply seeing what happens when you don't change the oil. I wonder how long a V10 would last on a cheap 5/20 and a can of blotting paper.


Yeah, and one of the best tests of whether a gun works or not is to look down the barrel when it is loaded, right?

Good God.....

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: skyship

Blackstones has a UOA from a Nissan truck that did 122,635 miles on a factory fill full synthetic oil on their web site that never had an oil or filter change over the 15 years it took to clock the miles up. It did not leak or burn oil and the engine is not damaged. Fully synthetic G4 5/40 and a real good oil filter:

NISSAN 5/40 UOA



Does Blackstone believe the vehicle was actually running, or loaded atop a flatbed truck, for the entire 122,635 miles?

 

[rrrrrroger]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My thoughts on a slightly heavier grade are borne from 4 decades of wearing out service trucks in one of the hardest duty cycles on the planet. We routinely run the spec oil until the consumption inevitably increases at very high mileage. Then we simply go up one grade.
What is the service duty cycle? What makes it "hard"?

Maybe you ought to "go up" one grade as soon as you buy the truck? Prevent more wear.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: skyship

Blackstones has a UOA from a Nissan truck that did 122,635 miles on a factory fill full synthetic oil on their web site that never had an oil or filter change over the 15 years it took to clock the miles up. It did not leak or burn oil and the engine is not damaged. Fully synthetic G4 5/40 and a real good oil filter:

NISSAN 5/40 UOA



Does Blackstone believe the vehicle was actually running, or loaded atop a flatbed truck, for the entire 122,635 miles?


They checked up on the vehicle and it was running all that time, the high mileage on the oil is obvious because Iron content is directly related to total miles.
I don't think there are many V10 engines in Germany, but some of the more careful private and fleet owners in the US who do UOA will be using German or British synthetic oils combined with US made long life filters.
Good engineers adjust the oil grade and type according to the useage and condition of the engine, a sensible owners manual gives a range of oils to allow you to do that. Probably 5/20 for the warranty period, full synthetic 0/30 to extend the OCI and a cheaper part synthetic 5 or 10/40 oil once the oil burning or leaking starts. For use in hot climates a 15/40 would be better and a 0/40 for an older engine in winter.
I can't believe that Ford have written 5/20 dinoblend only for this engine in the US, but that does seem to be what the bean counters wrote.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My thoughts on a slightly heavier grade are borne from 4 decades of wearing out service trucks in one of the hardest duty cycles on the planet. We routinely run the spec oil until the consumption inevitably increases at very high mileage. Then we simply go up one grade.
What is the service duty cycle? What makes it "hard"?

Maybe you ought to "go up" one grade as soon as you buy the truck? Prevent more wear.


Our usage involves the stationary operation of the engine as a power source for our equipment. This runs the truck at about 1700 rpm up to 2100, then factor in that our trucks can carry up to 320 gallons of water at 8.34 pounds per gallon, plus all the equipment we install.

They pretty much operate at full GVWR and never stop all day and sometimes all night.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My thoughts on a slightly heavier grade are borne from 4 decades of wearing out service trucks in one of the hardest duty cycles on the planet. We routinely run the spec oil until the consumption inevitably increases at very high mileage. Then we simply go up one grade.
What is the service duty cycle? What makes it "hard"?

Maybe you ought to "go up" one grade as soon as you buy the truck? Prevent more wear.


No, you should stick to the thinner end of the approved oils until the engine is fully run in, which could be a few years or so, BUT make every effort not to keep changing oil filters by using a top quality long life filter and fully synthetic 0/20, although you can get fully synthetic 5/20.
There is very little difference in wear factors unless you really push an engine hard between 20 and 40 grade use, BUT if you use cheap thin oil the fact it has to be changed so often is bad news in filtration efficiency terms, because clean filters let much more debris in than dirty ones and the Silicon crystals then cause a big increase in wear metals.
There are quite a number of old petrol Volvos driving around with over 1 million miles without a recon engine and whilst you might think they do a lot of oil filter changes they don't. Many are doing long OCI's using good 5/40 oil (Mostly Magnetec 10/40 or Edge 5/40, with a few GTX 15/40 users and various long life filters).

Volvo are one of the few companies selling cars in the US that has ignored the CAFE game and oddly enough some of their new main blocks are Ford based.
They specify full synthetic ACEA A5/B5 0 or 5/30 oil until 150K miles, then 5/40 for nearly all their cars, which is exactly the same as what they said 10 years ago and it's good to hear that one 1800s has passed 3 million miles. They currently recommend Castrol but you can use any A5/B5 synthetic under warranty with a real Volvo filter.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: skyship

Volvo are one of the few companies selling cars in the US that has ignored the CAFE game and oddly enough some of their new main blocks are Ford based.
They specify full synthetic ACEA A5/B5 0 or 5/30 oil until 150K miles, then 5/40 for nearly all their cars, which is exactly the same as what they said 10 years ago and it's good to hear that one 1800s has passed 3 million miles. They currently recommend Castrol but you can use any A5/B5 synthetic under warranty with a real Volvo filter.


That is very interesting that they spec a 30 weight until 150K and then a 40 weight after that. I never heard of anything like that before.
How many miles is their filter good for?

I've heard that point before about trying to leave a filter on for as long as possible to decrease wear. I remember when a lot of owner's manuals used to say only change the filter every other oil change.

 

[Trav]

Time for another skyship fact check..

Volvo V70 2009.
Originally Posted By: Volvo
When temperatures exceed 104 °F (40 °C) in
your area, Volvo recommends, for the protection
of your engine, that you use a heavier
weight oil, such as such as SAE 5W-40 or
0W-40. See the viscosity chart.
G023491
Viscosity table
Operation in temperate climates
Incorrect viscosity oil can shorten engine life.
Under normal use when temperatures do not
exceed 104 °F (40 °C), SAE 5W-30 will provide
good fuel economy and engine protection. See
the viscosity chart.
Extreme engine operation
Synthetic oils meeting SAE 0W-30 or 0W-40
and complying with oil quality requirements are
recommended for driving in areas of sustained
temperature extremes (hot or cold), when towing
a trailer over long distances, and for prolonged
driving in mountainous areas.

Originally Posted By: Skyship
They specify full synthetic ACEA A5/B5 0 or 5/30 oil until 150K miles, then 5/40 for nearly all their cars

for 2009
Originally Posted By: Volvo
Engine oil must meet the minimum ILSAC
specification GF-4, API SL, or ACEA A1/B1.

For 2012..
Originally Posted By: Volvo
Engine oil must meet the minimum ILSAC
specification GF-4, API SL, or ACEA A1/B1.
Lower quality oils may not offer the same fuel
economy, engine performance, or engine protection

Originally Posted By: Volvo
Incorrect viscosity oil can shorten engine life
under normal use. SAE 5W-30 will provide
good fuel economy and engine protection. See
the viscosity chart.
Extreme engine operation
Synthetic oils meeting SAE 0W-30 or 0W-40
and complying with oil quality requirements are recommended for driving in areas of sustained
temperature extremes (hot or cold), when towing
a trailer over long distances, and for prolonged
driving in mountainous areas.


Please post document where they want you to change to a different viscosity at 150K.
Before you go off on a "thats American spec" rant...
From Shell.UK
Originally Posted By: sell.UK
S80 2.0 (107kW) (P) (200
Application Recommendation Capacity (ltr) Data Sheets
Engine (P) Helix Ultra AF 5W30 (b, c)

Granted Euro spec is most likely A5,B5 but i still cant find anything that says use 5w40 after 150K

The do however give alternatives but are temperature related as is the US specs.
Originally Posted By: Shell.UK
b. Alternative recommendations: Helix Ultra AS 0W-30
c. Alternative recommendations, >2002: A5 0W-40; -25°C to 40°C, A5+B5 5W-40; -10°C to 30°C, A5+B5 10W-30; -10°C to 40°C, A5+B5 10W-40


Help me out here with this viscosity change at 150K

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: skyship

Volvo are one of the few companies selling cars in the US that has ignored the CAFE game and oddly enough some of their new main blocks are Ford based.
They specify full synthetic ACEA A5/B5 0 or 5/30 oil until 150K miles, then 5/40 for nearly all their cars, which is exactly the same as what they said 10 years ago and it's good to hear that one 1800s has passed 3 million miles. They currently recommend Castrol but you can use any A5/B5 synthetic under warranty with a real Volvo filter.


That is very interesting that they spec a 30 weight until 150K and then a 40 weight after that. I never heard of anything like that before.
How many miles is their filter good for?

I've heard that point before about trying to leave a filter on for as long as possible to decrease wear. I remember when a lot of owner's manuals used to say only change the filter every other oil change.


There are a few cars where oil only changes are recommended and even some trucks that do the opposite with filter only changes.
It just depends on what type of filter you can get, but most car ones are good for 20K miles. Oil only changes are more common with marine diesels, because engine life is a top priority.
The Volvo notes say consult the dealer after 150K miles, as they might decide to recommend an HM oil or different OCI according to engine condition. When an engine is real old it might contaminate the oil with fuel or coolant, so it can be necessary to reduce the OCI.

The 0 or 5/30 full synthetic is used for this Ford Engine which is a popular one:

The 8-valve, 2.0 L DW10, delivering 90 or 110 bhp, is part of the PSA EW/DW engine family. It is equipped with a fixed-geometry turbocharger. This engine is fitted to the Ford Focus, 2007 Ford Mondeo, Ford Galaxy, Ford C-Max, Ford S-Max, Volvo C30, Volvo S40, Volvo V50, Citroën C5, Citroën C6 and Peugeot 408.

UMM, now check to see what CAFE bean counters at Ford say about the recommended oil and guess what, it says 5/20!! Now I wonder which company you should trust for sound engineering advice, Volvo or Ford??

I will stick with my V40, but if I did want a V50 with the 2.0 Ford engine, I sure will follow the advice from Volvo and use a G4 full synthetic 0 or 5/30 and not go to a Ford dealer for some El cheapo dino 5/20. Volvo even had to order new oil caps!

 

[Clevy]

Skyship is off again believing his own made up "facts"
Art. He may sound like he has a clue however most everyone of his posts obtain blatant lies and incorrect information.
There should be a disclaimer under his posts stating for entertainment purposes only.
Thank you Trav for once again posting actual facts,not assumptions or opinion.

Art. Skyship has as gone as far to say liqui-Moly's idle flush caused a runaway on the autobahn,then posts don't use additives in your oil,but then recommends a couple. Then he says no manufacturer recommends oil treatments yet chevy has their own branded zddp oil additive.
He is skilled. I've never in my life seen anyone so able to talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time. It's truly a gift.
Pathological would be an accurate assessment.

 

[Trav]

I just never heard of any manufacturer specing a higher viscosity based solely on a mileage point that's all.
If the engine has had a good synthetic all its life and changed at the correct OCI then even at 150K it should be still reasonably tight if its any good and not a disposable Vega engine.

I just want to see some documentation that's all.
If true it certainly opens a box of questions.

 

[Mystic]

What made me laugh was when Skyship said he concocted his own engine flushes or cleaners for marine engines. Now true, he was talking about marine engines and not car engines, but still for a guy who says you should use just the correct motor oil and certain idle only engine flushes I still found all of that amazing.

And he thought that there would be nobody here at bitgo who knew anything about what was used in German garages. It is very lucky for us that Trav here was available to speak up with knowledge about what is actually used in German garages.

The available evidence indicates that Skyship does not know what was used in German garages, at least in recent years.

I found it amazing and funny how Skyship danced around the alleged turbo runaway drive around engine cleaner story. He just kept adding to the story on and on. He came up with that story to explain why he did not mention that LM apparently has a drive around cleaner, and when he was challenged he just kept right on adding to the story. In the end of course we were told by Skyship that nobody could identify the drive around cleaner used and it would be months before an investigation could be completed. All the while totally no documentation of any of this at all-no proof whatsoever it even happened.

This is getting as silly, as sad, and as funny as when the Synlube guy/guys visited this website.

I guess we need to thank Skyship for his posts. I can hardly wait for the next one.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
http://www.f150forum.com/f4/

Just incase you wanna do a little research on all the things that make one tick rattle and bang. Its been covered heavily with many threads including videos and descriptions of the different rattle problems and how to tell them apart.

Hint: 20/50 wont quiet down a phaser and they tend to knock all the time not just on start up, Vct solenoids make it sound like a diesel when they go bad and timing chain tensioners and lash limiters rattle on start up when they are wore.



Ive spent many of hours repairing 5.4l 3v's with phaser issues. im well aware of the problems. i currently own 3 5.4l 3v f150s. Sorry if i offended you, you seem a tad touchy on the subject. perhaps my post came across a bit forward.

 

[Black_Thunder]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!

It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear

Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.



I have 2 older f150's that have "check engine oil" printed either on the fuel cap or inside the fuel door.

and that was when they suggested 6,000 mile oil intervals in the manual

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Skyship is off again believing his own made up "facts"
Art. He may sound like he has a clue however most everyone of his posts obtain blatant lies and incorrect information.
There should be a disclaimer under his posts stating for entertainment purposes only.
Thank you Trav for once again posting actual facts,not assumptions or opinion.

Art. Skyship has as gone as far to say liqui-Moly's idle flush caused a runaway on the autobahn,then posts don't use additives in your oil,but then recommends a couple. Then he says no manufacturer recommends oil treatments yet chevy has their own branded zddp oil additive.
He is skilled. I've never in my life seen anyone so able to talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time. It's truly a gift.
Pathological would be an accurate assessment.


UMM, You did not read my posts about the additives because I pointed out that chemicals like idle only flushes that are used within a garage and not left in the crankcase for you to drive around with are not snake oil additives but maintenance products. Also I specifically mentioned that any additive that has a vehicle manufacturers approval or at least a recommendation is not a snake oil, although there are very few current approvals.
Also every time you post you fail to add anything of interest, just personal attacks.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
What made me laugh was when Skyship said he concocted his own engine flushes or cleaners for marine engines. Now true, he was talking about marine engines and not car engines, but still for a guy who says you should use just the correct motor oil and certain idle only engine flushes I still found all of that amazing.

And he thought that there would be nobody here at bitgo who knew anything about what was used in German garages. It is very lucky for us that Trav here was available to speak up with knowledge about what is actually used in German garages.

The available evidence indicates that Skyship does not know what was used in German garages, at least in recent years.

I found it amazing and funny how Skyship danced around the alleged turbo runaway drive around engine cleaner story. He just kept adding to the story on and on. He came up with that story to explain why he did not mention that LM apparently has a drive around cleaner, and when he was challenged he just kept right on adding to the story. In the end of course we were told by Skyship that nobody could identify the drive around cleaner used and it would be months before an investigation could be completed. All the while totally no documentation of any of this at all-no proof whatsoever it even happened.

This is getting as silly, as sad, and as funny as when the Synlube guy/guys visited this website.

I guess we need to thank Skyship for his posts. I can hardly wait for the next one.


Again you have nothing to contribute but are just making a personal attack because of my anti snake oil use attitudes, also go back and read my additive posts again, because I did not say I mixed idle flushes for marine engines, although I did use a home brew one from a fishing co-operative in Spain once.
Nearly every auto shop seems to use idle flushes on occasions for non warranty specific work and the major engine oil companies like Castrol make them.
Trav pointed out that LM produced a scourer in addition to a flush, which I knew about but did not want to mention in public because it has no approvals or recommendations and is one silly product, although like their other additives is sold most to Eastern block countries where folks can't get good oil.
I only visit major dealers in Southern Germany, so I don't know what cheaper products are in use at independent garages or North of Stuttgart. Every one I visit uses Castrol, Mobil or Liqui Moly products only for lubrication.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I just never heard of any manufacturer specing a higher viscosity based solely on a mileage point that's all.
If the engine has had a good synthetic all its life and changed at the correct OCI then even at 150K it should be still reasonably tight if its any good and not a disposable Vega engine.

I just want to see some documentation that's all.
If true it certainly opens a box of questions.


I should have said dealership, as the Volvo document says consult the dealer about which oil to use after 150K, they have several oils approved and the dealer can choose alternates. The alternates like cheaper Magnetec (EU only) are listed on the Castrol site. If the engine is in good condition with low oil consumption they will say 5/30 for the newer engines, as far as I am aware, but they do adjust recommendations when more data becomes available.