Here I go again.New ford truck burning 5w20 oil.

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Yep, they make a 5/20 and here is the link:
LM 5/20
Too busy to go check specs.
Data sheet:
5/20 DATA SHEET


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
IS THIS THE CORRECT ENGINE:
FORD E450 2012
Ford USA License plate:
Engine: E-450 6.8 V10 (2008 - ) Date: 7-1-2013
· Capacity : Capacity 5,7 liter
· Use : Normal
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 7500 miles / 6 months
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

· Use : Severe
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 5000 miles / 6 months / 200 hours
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

It lists that engine as in current production and the above info is from the US page (Under vans) of the Liqui Moly oil finder. The Germans only accept original design spec sheets, so it must be the wrong engine!
OIL FINDER:
LIQUI MOLY (USA) OIL FINDER


Does LM make a 5w20? I couldn't find one on their site

They obviously aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

And please expand on your last point. My M5 requires an oil that meets LL-01. That covers a wide range of 0w30 to 5w40 lubricants. It isn't a viscosity spec. Ford has their own oil specifications for their gasoline engines that include, 20, 30 and 50 weight oils.


Excellent, didn't see it on the original link you posted when I went through the oil list.

So it is an HC synthetic, recommended for intervals up to 40,000Km.......?

It is also not certified by Ford for the WSS spec's, simply "recommended for", similar language to the boutique American synthetic brands like Royal Purple, AMSOIL, Redline....etc.

Now, earlier you said 5w20 sheers and is inappropriate for extended drains, however they are saying:

Originally Posted By: LM
APPLICATION AREAS Ideal for modern Japanese and American gasoline engines. Particularly suitable in case of long oil change intervals and high motor requirements.


and

Originally Posted By: LM
Modern premium-class fuel-efficient engine oil, which especially has been developed for the year-round use in Asian and American vehicles. The combination of unconventional base oils on synthesis technology in connection with the latest additives guarantees an engine oil which protects against wear, reduces the oil and fuel consumption, keeps the engine clean and provides for a quick oiling of the engine. According to the instructions of the manufacturer, oil change intervals of up to 40,000 km are realizable.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: electrolover

mine wasnt. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg


Both yours and mine are what are called "anecdotal reports." Anecdotally speaking again, my 5.4L was no quieter on Motorcraft 10W30 than it was on Motorcraft 5W20, Royal Purple 5W20 or Castrol GTX 5W20.

But the bottom line is, for whatever reason Ford did it (and I reality don't care why), they qualified the use of 5W20 for most Ford engines in most situations. In the 13 or so years since, there hasn't been a rash of engine failures because of it. I've never seen even ONE documented failure because 5W20 was used (seems like there have to be a few, though, given the wide range of extreme operational situations in which 5W20 would be inadequate). For that reason, I can state with some certainty that there is no "mechanical reason" to run a thicker oil in these 5w20-spec'ed Ford engines, unless specified by Ford in special cases, dictated by operational conditions or some other common-sense, situationally-based reason a knowledgable owner might encounter. I contend that going heavier, without any clear, proven, "mechanical reason" is the true coolaid drinking because it's done on the basis of some "belief" not necessarily on proven fact. If you or anyone else can provide a study or long term testing that indicates the service/reliability record of the Ford Modular engine improve with 5W30, or some heavier oil, I am always open to having my mind changed. Without that, anything you or anyone else says is sheer speculation.

Frankly I don't really CARE whether the oil spec'ed by an OEM is thick or thin. It is what it is. I put some faith in OEM testing and qualifications because it is logical to do so until I have some concrete reason to doubt it in specific cases. If Ford did it for CAFE credits... who cares. They QUALIFIED it in testing and many millions of miles of operational use by customers have proven them largely right. Is 5W20 optimal in all cases, even in the Ford engines so spec'ed... of course not! But for the vast, vast, vast, overwhelming majority of operators, it is. It's really quite simple.




The only thing I can tell you is my 5.4 rattles like a bag of ball bearings on 5/20 and not with 5/30. Maybe it just wore out lashlimiters or tensioner....but the fact remains it runs better with a thicker oil. And like I said its gone 30k with 5/30 with no ill effects. Thats my clear mechanical reason!

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: electrolover

mine wasnt. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg


Both yours and mine are what are called "anecdotal reports." Anecdotally speaking again, my 5.4L was no quieter on Motorcraft 10W30 than it was on Motorcraft 5W20, Royal Purple 5W20 or Castrol GTX 5W20.

But the bottom line is, for whatever reason Ford did it (and I really don't care why), they qualified the use of 5W20 for most Ford engines in most situations. In the 13 or so years since, there hasn't been a rash of engine failures because of it. I've never seen even ONE documented failure because 5W20 was used (seems like there have to be a few, though, given the wide range of extreme operational situations in which 5W20 would be inadequate). For that reason, I can state with some certainty that there is no "mechanical reason" to run a thicker oil in these 5w20-spec'ed Ford engines, unless specified by Ford in special cases, dictated by operational conditions or some other common-sense, situationally-based reason a knowledgable owner might encounter. I contend that going heavier, without any clear, proven, "mechanical reason" is the true coolaid drinking because it's done on the basis of some "belief" not necessarily on proven fact. If you or anyone else can provide a study or long term testing that indicates the service/reliability record of the Ford Modular engine improve with 5W30, or some heavier oil, I am always open to having my mind changed. Without that, anything you or anyone else says is sheer speculation.

Frankly I don't really CARE whether the oil spec'ed by an OEM is thick or thin. It is what it is. I put some faith in OEM testing and qualifications because it is logical to do so until I have some concrete reason to doubt it in specific cases. If Ford did it for CAFE credits... who cares. They QUALIFIED it in testing and many millions of miles of operational use by customers have proven them largely right. Is 5W20 optimal in all cases, even in the Ford engines so spec'ed... of course not! But for the vast, vast, vast, overwhelming majority of operators, it is. It's really quite simple.


Modern engines almost never fail unless there is an obvious reason, like no coolant, no oil or the 20 year old cam belt snaps. What happens is they start to wear their rings, valve guides and bearings etc. That results in high oil consumption, smoke and oil leaks. You can try complaining to Ford, but unless they think you will buy a new engine the dealer will suffer a case of post warranty selective deafness. Once the main bearings start to rattle you will probably give up and scrap the vehicle, but if you keep changing the oil and filters it will still be possible to drive to the scrap yard.
If you want to keep a vehicle in good condition for as long as possible, I would DYOR about oil viscosity and why LM and other major oil companies have web sites that ignore the light oil game and use the optimum oil, filter and OCI outside the US. Also I would never use a dinoblend 5/20 if you decide to help Ford gain CAFE credits and at least use a full G4 0/20 full synthetic. If you do use a better oil and then restrict the max revs to only those required for 65 mph and avoid heavy loads up steep hills, then the engine might last as long as one run on 5/30.
OEM testing is very good, but they only publish the data that is approved by the CAFE bean counters and nothing that was sent to the Ford dealers outside the US, or sent to engine oil companies outside the US has proven that it is acceptable to use a dinoblend 5/20 and compensate for that decision with short OCI's and high acceptable oil consumption limits. The engine oil companies outside the US looked at the engine design specs and did their own sums and even ran test rigs before filing recommendations from Ford in a special file marked CAFE BIN.
I always thought the US was a land of free speech and free information access, but that is only true if the bean counters want it to be and right now they won't allow a correct range of oils (0/20, 0/30, 0 or 5/40?) to be published. The millions of miles the thin oil engines have done has proven that the vehicles most effected by the thin oil game are those that lead a hard life at high revs, so if you drive like a granny then you need not be concerned about thin oils.
The thin oil game reminds me of the SUV box bearing game, where the new bling, bling SUV's had 4WD gearboxes that had many components that were from normal car boxes, so if you buy a new SUV and use it hard off road for a few years the auto box bearings fail. Luckily only one in one thousand SUV owners does any serious off road driving, so replacing the odd box under warranty is acceptable. Nothing was written in any SUV manual saying not to drive too hard up bumpy hills and they won't write anything about the need to drive like a granny in the V10 manual either.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
Yep, they make a 5/20 and here is the link:
LM 5/20
Too busy to go check specs.
Data sheet:
5/20 DATA SHEET


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
IS THIS THE CORRECT ENGINE:
FORD E450 2012
Ford USA License plate:
Engine: E-450 6.8 V10 (2008 - ) Date: 7-1-2013
· Capacity : Capacity 5,7 liter
· Use : Normal
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 7500 miles / 6 months
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

· Use : Severe
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 5000 miles / 6 months / 200 hours
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

It lists that engine as in current production and the above info is from the US page (Under vans) of the Liqui Moly oil finder. The Germans only accept original design spec sheets, so it must be the wrong engine!
OIL FINDER:
LIQUI MOLY (USA) OIL FINDER


Does LM make a 5w20? I couldn't find one on their site

They obviously aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

And please expand on your last point. My M5 requires an oil that meets LL-01. That covers a wide range of 0w30 to 5w40 lubricants. It isn't a viscosity spec. Ford has their own oil specifications for their gasoline engines that include, 20, 30 and 50 weight oils.


Excellent, didn't see it on the original link you posted when I went through the oil list.

So it is an HC synthetic, recommended for intervals up to 40,000Km.......?

It is also not certified by Ford for the WSS spec's, simply "recommended for", similar language to the boutique American synthetic brands like Royal Purple, AMSOIL, Redline....etc.

Now, earlier you said 5w20 sheers and is inappropriate for extended drains, however they are saying:

Originally Posted By: LM
APPLICATION AREAS Ideal for modern Japanese and American gasoline engines. Particularly suitable in case of long oil change intervals and high motor requirements.


and

Originally Posted By: LM
Modern premium-class fuel-efficient engine oil, which especially has been developed for the year-round use in Asian and American vehicles. The combination of unconventional base oils on synthesis technology in connection with the latest additives guarantees an engine oil which protects against wear, reduces the oil and fuel consumption, keeps the engine clean and provides for a quick oiling of the engine. According to the instructions of the manufacturer, oil change intervals of up to 40,000 km are realizable.

That LM 5/20 will be on a par from the latest Castrol, Mobil or Shell fully synthetic (HC) 5/20 in performance terms, so it will have been designed not to shear too much, BUT the Ford 5/20 is a dino blend (I think) which is about as good as Castrol GTX (Part dino) in terms of high temp shear resistance. The 40K km OCI is probably some de tuned hybrid engine, as 30K km seems to be the current new turbo diesel OCI. I doubt if a gas guzzling V10 would have an OCI of even 10K km on 5/20 if they recommend only 12.5K km for a 5/40.
LM want to sell more oil in the US and Japan, so they have to agree to the light oil game, because US owners will look at their van or truck handbook for the oil grade and then walk into the parts shop looking for the listed oil, but what makes me laugh is that whilst Lubro Moly, an independent US company sells their oil in the US, the Germans can still stick to publishing the correct data. LM are playing the thin oil game the German way, so they are not going to publish anything incorrect in oil engineering terms, but oddly enough that won't stop them selling 5/20 oil overseas.
I've not seen the new 5/20 in any local store yet, BUT I was interested in their new 5/50 for the day when my oil consumption creeps up to half quart per 10k km.

 

[Clevy]

My dodge has 255000 running 5w-20 all its life. No consumption that I've noticed and easily shreds the tires in 2wd and will jump when in 4wd 3/4 throttle.
I've personally seen 350000kms on ford 5.4 2v engines driven like trucks,pulling loaded trailers to and from the job sites and in mud up to the doors,so the 20 grades in the ford modulars,and in the hemi's seem to be doing just fine.
I personally saw yesterday a gent come in to my friends body shop as I was changing my oil with an 04 hemi with 420000kms on it.
I of course asked him how he uses it and oil choice. He stated he bought the truck new,pulls a trailer with a full load full of equipment and scaffold for stucco application,it sees bumper to bumper traffic,fully loaded and its been dealer serviced with whatever 5w-20 that is in the bulk containers.
He also stated it consumes no oil between 6000-8000 km oil changes and the motor runs flawlessly. He did state he is on his 3 transmission due to the constant overloaded towing he does.
So,skyship,should he expect his engine to dissolve in short order,should I inform the countless carpenters in the sub-divisions I work in that their ford 2v are going to fail shortly and they should expect to need new engines. If so I will get the bullhorn and let em know

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: skyship


Modern engines almost never fail unless there is an obvious reason, like no coolant, no oil or the 20 year old cam belt snaps. What happens is they start to wear their rings, valve guides and bearings etc. That results in high oil consumption, smoke and oil leaks. You can try complaining to Ford, but unless they think you will buy a new engine the dealer will suffer a case of post warranty selective deafness. Once the main bearings start to rattle you will probably give up and scrap the vehicle, but if you keep changing the oil and filters it will still be possible to drive to the scrap yard.
If you want to keep a vehicle in good condition for as long as possible, I would DYOR about oil viscosity and why LM and other major oil companies have web sites that ignore the light oil game and use the optimum oil, filter and OCI outside the US. Also I would never use a dinoblend 5/20 if you decide to help Ford gain CAFE credits and at least use a full G4 0/20 full synthetic. If you do use a better oil and then restrict the max revs to only those required for 65 mph and avoid heavy loads up steep hills, then the engine might last as long as one run on 5/30.
OEM testing is very good, but they only publish the data that is approved by the CAFE bean counters and nothing that was sent to the Ford dealers outside the US, or sent to engine oil companies outside the US has proven that it is acceptable to use a dinoblend 5/20 and compensate for that decision with short OCI's and high acceptable oil consumption limits. The engine oil companies outside the US looked at the engine design specs and did their own sums and even ran test rigs before filing recommendations from Ford in a special file marked CAFE BIN.
I always thought the US was a land of free speech and free information access, but that is only true if the bean counters want it to be and right now they won't allow a correct range of oils (0/20, 0/30, 0 or 5/40?) to be published. The millions of miles the thin oil engines have done has proven that the vehicles most effected by the thin oil game are those that lead a hard life at high revs, so if you drive like a granny then you need not be concerned about thin oils.
The thin oil game reminds me of the SUV box bearing game, where the new bling, bling SUV's had 4WD gearboxes that had many components that were from normal car boxes, so if you buy a new SUV and use it hard off road for a few years the auto box bearings fail. Luckily only one in one thousand SUV owners does any serious off road driving, so replacing the odd box under warranty is acceptable. Nothing was written in any SUV manual saying not to drive too hard up bumpy hills and they won't write anything about the need to drive like a granny in the V10 manual either.


I challenge you to provide more than supposition, unsupported statements, WAGs and a desire to be "right" at any cost. The failures you describe aren't happening on a scale larger than what would be called isolated incidents. If they are, produce some evidence. We've had plenty of testimony here about fleets of Ford Modular equipped police cars that live a hard life in that role then have a second life as a taxi... all on 5W20. I wouldn't call that "granny service."

Skyship, you and many others are under the mistaken impression that just because something is good for some high output engine it must be good, or better than the spec'ed oil, for a grocery schlepper. That simply isn't true. Most autos and trucks are not used in any way that would be considered hard duty and, yes, that is one of many reasons why modern vehicles in that category can get away with light oils. The thing you need to prove to me is that a heavier oil in that exact venue will produce more beneficial results. I don't think you can.

I think Ford proved it ... to themselves and the majority of their customers who use them within the limits that Ford tested to. That some offshore arm of Ford uses a heavier oil is "proof" of very little other than the engine can tolerate heavier oils. To my knowledge, these offshore arms of the company have not engaged in any testing on the scale of what Ford did to validate 5W20. In looking at these offshore recommendations, it appears they may be as much to suit the market (cultural preferences as well as what's commonly on the shelves) as anything. While we don't have chapter and verse of the 5W20 validation here in the States, we have enough evidence in bits and pieces to know it was a very significant test. And the reliability records of the engines in question bear it out. I have seen no evidence of significant testing done offshore. If I was going to guess, the only testing done offshore, or for the offshore markets, would be to validate that the heavier oil wasn't going to be a problem in an engine spec'ed for lighter oil.

Again, who cares if Ford was motivated by CAFE or just a desire to PO Skyship. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the spec'ed 5W20 oil WORKS and provides a long lifetime for the engines so spec'ed (usual caveats). I am only speaking to Ford Modulars here. If you or anyone else can provide significant evidence that 5W30 (or some other heavier grade) allows a Modular to last longer in normal service, I invite the presentation of it and would be grateful to see it, since I own one and want it to last.

 

[SteveSRT8]

My thoughts on a slightly heavier grade are borne from 4 decades of wearing out service trucks in one of the hardest duty cycles on the planet. We routinely run the spec oil until the consumption inevitably increases at very high mileage.

Then we simply go up one grade. This has worked in dozens of GM, FORD, and Chrysler products I have owned over the many years I have run fleets of vehicles for both myself and others. 90% of these were V-8's, with a few old school Ford straight 6's.

Since this hurts nothing it is a harmless experiment and worthy of a try once the OP exhausts the usual remedies. If the OP has some sort of mechanical malady then all bets are off, but I'm betting his issue may even resolve itself over time.

Jim, with all due respect I do not share your intense faith in mfgr r&d. I have seen many technologies (DI for example) come to market very unproven and be developed by the early adopters!

 

[aquariuscsm]

I've seen several 2013 Mustang GT's go through multiple blown motors. I can guarantee those cars we're raced and driven VERY hard. The failure I keep seeing is the 5.0 motors dropping a piston. Wonder if 5W50 would prevent this from happening?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: nickaluch
Brand new ford E450 2012 with 1410 miles.Checked the oil on wed and down a quart of 5/20 factory fill.Dropped it off at the dealer thurs nite,did an oil chenge and was told to keep an eye on it.The truck has the V10 and carries very heavy loads.The dealer did say they mite bump the oil up to 5w30.whats your thought on this?

Within the first 1,000 - 2,000 miles or so, it's not unusual for a large engine to burn 1 qt as the rings and linings are broken in.

From 5W-20 to 5W-30, it will reduce the consumption slightly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I've seen several 2013 Mustang GT's go through multiple blown motors. I can guarantee those cars we're raced and driven VERY hard. The failure I keep seeing is the 5.0 motors dropping a piston. Wonder if 5W50 would prevent this from happening?


Have you seen any blown BOSS 302's? That would be the alternate data point that might at least indicate whether you are OTL or potentially onto something here

I fully believe that the Coyote in the Mustang GT is spec'd for 5w20 for CAFE only. It is dissimilar from the other Modulars due to its MUCH higher power density and subsequently stands alone in that regard. The fact that its almost identical sibling spec's an oil three grades heavier speaks volumes as to what is truly optimal for that engine.

On the other hand, I think the 5.4L and V10 are fine on 5w20, as they simply don't have the HP/L to tax the oil like Coyote does.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Jim, with all due respect I do not share your intense faith in mfgr r&d. I have seen many technologies (DI for example) come to market very unproven and be developed by the early adopters!



I wouldn't call it "intense faith." I would call it "going with the best data available until something better comes along."

I'm really just railing against the seemingly blind faith expressed here on both sides... that "thick is better" or "thin is better" as if they are absolutes. They aren't.

Very little is perfect in the world of cars, or the world period, but you go with the best you have. In this case, I go with Ford's qualifications because they are the best we have and they have been further validated by a lot of owner miles. I lack the blind faith, and have the knowledge to realize, that if start using my truck to tow at it's 15K GCVWR across the Mojave that I am wise to increase the oil viscosity. Despite Ford reputedly having tested to these types of extremes... and the fact that people do routinely use their Ford trucks this way. I will hedge my bets in this case because the situation dictates it by pushing the envelope a little closer to the edge than I am willing to go. But the way I use the truck here, 5W20 is perfectly efficacious 100 percent of the time... as it its for the vast majority of truck owners.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Jim, with all due respect I do not share your intense faith in mfgr r&d. I have seen many technologies (DI for example) come to market very unproven and be developed by the early adopters!



But there's a difference between an oil standard introduced in 2001 which had no difference in wear parameters between 20 weight and 30 weight and which has subsequently improved and which has seen billions of miles of driving vs the new technologies or to be new technologies that manufacturers will introduce which almost everyone here is wary of and do not want to be the early adopters for.

The 20 weight is proven! It's happened! You can't lump it into the same category as a new unproven technology.

And there's a difference in who introduces any new technology. Toyota hybrids are their most reliable variants. Hyundai / Kia have had some problems with reliability. I would trust Chrysler less than Toyota when moving to 20 weight. And right now it is the Japanese leading the way on 20 weight.

Btw, every year, 3 trillion miles are driven in the US. Ford has a 16% market share. If half of those 3 trillion miles are with vehicle classes that Ford make and only half of Fords use 20 weight oil, that's still 7.5 trillion miles on 20 weight oil.

There was someone who doubted that the desert testing took place and someone else who kept on mocking others for bringing it up.

Are they going to now say trillions of miles of driving on 20 weight didn't occur? The magnitude of absurdity of folks who don't understand simple statistical / empirical method and rather fall back on direct experience and some reading which they characterize in a false equivalence as "facts" is so easily exposed with some numbers isn't it?

 

[Shannow]

Nobody anywhere said that Ford didn't test...

The queries were about what compromises Ford were accepting on the future owner's behalf (#), and the validity of testing many miles over a short period, versus more real world activities.

(#) - see the 16W Honda thread where Honda have determined the durability of backspeccing provides "adequate" life.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I've seen several 2013 Mustang GT's go through multiple blown motors. I can guarantee those cars we're raced and driven VERY hard. The failure I keep seeing is the 5.0 motors dropping a piston. Wonder if 5W50 would prevent this from happening?


Have you seen any blown BOSS 302's? That would be the alternate data point that might at least indicate whether you are OTL or potentially onto something here

I fully believe that the Coyote in the Mustang GT is spec'd for 5w20 for CAFE only. It is dissimilar from the other Modulars due to its MUCH higher power density and subsequently stands alone in that regard. The fact that its almost identical sibling spec's an oil three grades heavier speaks volumes as to what is truly optimal for that engine.

On the other hand, I think the 5.4L and V10 are fine on 5w20, as they simply don't have the HP/L to tax the oil like Coyote does.


No blown Boss 302's or Shelbys. Only GT's.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Fox S
What's amusing is that skyship is in the thick oil camp but they don't want him.

No not really, he is in his own little outpost.
People make the mistake that i am in the thick oil camp. I am also not against 20w oil, i have used in in my own Expedition.

What i am against is blanket statements like thinner is better and recommending it wholesale.
Ditto thick oil.

If i ran my (sold) Expedition 2v in winter 20w was the perfect choice for it but seeing Ford found it necessary to put a weight proviso on using oil i made the decision to use 30w in the summer.
With this truck i had a wide range of viscosity choices but on some new vehicles they give no choice if you want to keep the warranty.
Yet they will warranty the same engine with different oils in similar conditions elsewhere.
That's the crux of my complaint.

I also have no problem using thicker oils in engines that have issues. My M35x with VQ engine had consumption issues on 30w but ran smoother and no consumption on 0w40, UOA's showed 0w40 was like a match made in heaven for these engines.

5w20 3.5 iVTEC engines also get thicker oil, someone dropped the ball with the oil and OCI on this engine judging from the deposit and varnish fiasco that is becoming more common as these engines reach the 100K mark.

High output engines can also benefit from thicker oil IMO, but i guess it comes down to the oil for the engine in the conditions its run in.
Basically i try use what work best and keep the engine clean and healthy.
So far its been working going by the miles i get out of my engines over the last 40 yrs without a lube related failure of any kind.

I will not use PP in my engine just because its "thinner" as is often recommended by a rabid thin oil proponent on this forum or Redline because its thicker.
The engine calls for 5w30, i don't give a rats rear if it thin or thick, if it meets that and the manufacturers spec that's good enough for me.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nobody anywhere said that Ford didn't test...


Oh yes they did.

Originally Posted By: Shannow


The queries were about what compromises Ford were accepting on the future owner's behalf (#), and the validity of testing many miles over a short period, versus more real world activities.

(#) - see the 16W Honda thread where Honda have determined the durability of backspeccing provides "adequate" life.


That line of questioning I agree with. All testing is simulation of some sort. But do not the ~7.5 trillion miles since then satisfy anybody?

The Ford oil standard had no differentiator between 20 weight and 30 weight except fuel economy. Will someone post up if there are some other tests that should be performed?

Honda will go through the same process and problems Ford did. I'm completely open to both sides of the argument on a new technology. I'll give a company like Honda more credit than a Chrysler but I wouldn't be an early adopter.

I'm open to both sides on the 20 weight topic. Folks like Overkill make some great observations. Autobahn usage definitely is an exception also. But beyond that there's just a lot of noise.

 

[electrolover]

I cant believe all this is over Ford not being able to hone a block or install rings properly.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
I cant believe all this is over Ford not being able to hone a block or install rings properly.



I liked your pre-edited post better (but I agree with the sentiment above):

Originally Posted By: electrolover

I think its awesome the way you tell someone to prove to you stuff. Your all like spend a million bucks and ill believe you if thats always your arguement theres no way you can loose. Btw just you own a dictionary doesn't make you a triboligist..

How bout you buy two identical engines and run them a thousand hours on a dyno with 5/20 and 5/30 and then report back your findings on engine wear and that will prove to me that 5/30 isnt needed. Because im the authority and you need to convince me.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: electrolover

. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg


No way to argue around the FACT that the manufacturer recommends 5w30 in the RoW.

In my view this fact proves that the 5w-20 is THE concession to CAFE rules in the USA, and nothing more.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: electrolover

. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg


No way to argue around the FACT that the manufacturer recommends 5w30 in the RoW.

In my view this fact proves that the 5w-20 is THE concession to CAFE rules in the USA, and nothing more.


This vehicle is not subject to CAFE regulations. Your view seems tainted by your own biases. The FACT is that 5W20 isn't as readily available in the RoW, so maybe, just maybe, Ford recognizes that fact and allows 5W30 in other places, since at the end of the day it's not a big deal either way.