Here I go again.New ford truck burning 5w20 oil.

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Well,we got about 6 or 7 more pages yet to go of discussing 5w20 oil again.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.


Yep I don't even know what they're arguing about except that they clearly don't like one another.

What's amusing is that skyship is in the thick oil camp but they don't want him.

Overkill is putting in very reasoned points about when 20 weight is appropriate so it would be wonderful if there were some fact based arguments against what he is saying but there isn't. I've even seen a post about "claimed testing" and how even the dealer is recommending 30 weight so 20 weight must be suspect - these are the types of rebuttals coming from people who criticize skyship for making things up!

So this isn't a thin vs thick argument. It's just an argument, and in some cases it's just about ego.

(Now its my turn to receive personal criticism)


I agree about the suspect oil recommendation. I didn't think the dealer was allowed to go over ford engineering,but I wasn't there so I'm not going to call anyone a liar.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Well,we got about 6 or 7 more pages yet to go of discussing 5w20 oil again.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.


Yep I don't even know what they're arguing about except that they clearly don't like one another.

What's amusing is that skyship is in the thick oil camp but they don't want him.

Overkill is putting in very reasoned points about when 20 weight is appropriate so it would be wonderful if there were some fact based arguments against what he is saying but there isn't. I've even seen a post about "claimed testing" and how even the dealer is recommending 30 weight so 20 weight must be suspect - these are the types of rebuttals coming from people who criticize skyship for making things up!

So this isn't a thin vs thick argument. It's just an argument, and in some cases it's just about ego.

(Now its my turn to receive personal criticism)


My real beef is with the information supplied by the main vehicle manufacturers as it is biased in favour of thin oils to cut fuel consumption. The bean counters are in charge and partly because most car manufacturers are not making money, they are pushing every department as hard as possible to save money. That financial pressure has resulted in back specing every component that shows signs of exceeding warranty requirements, so once an engine has been in production for long enough for the R&D folks to figure out which bearings etc last too long, they save money by changing to cheaper ones, as long as it is not going to result in a financial penalty in terms too many warranty claims.
It does not matter if the engine says made in the USA, just look at who made the bearings and parts and although it might have said made in the USA or EU the first few years, after the bean counters shout at the R&D folks to cut costs, the next year will result in a whole bunch of made in China and India labels. Even Volvo back speced my own cars brake discs from a UK company to India, although they are still good and made to the same spec, but that is an exception as the new cheaper components don't last as long in the vast majority of cases.
With regards to thin oil, they are giving advice that results in a serious waste of natural resources, because even if they modify or design an engine to accept cheap 5/20 use, there is almost no reason why they can't offer you a choice of either 5/20 and a short OCI, or a top quality full synthetic 0/30 and a good long OCI. Same game with some oil filters, so I'm not suprised to see it mentioned that Ford don't do a long life oil option as it would cause them to offer a better oil and filter, which in marketing terms looks bad. Oddly enough I think Ford are better than than the other US main manufacturers in engine terms.
Every other non US engine manufacturer quotes a range of acceptable oil grades, but CAFE bean counting and Japanese fuel economy related concerns have resulted in only 20 grade oils being insisted upon in the US and all mention of 30 grades has been removed or not included in most new documentation. Even for race engines they seem to have cut the spec from 10/60 to 50 or 40 in some cases.
A modern engine can be designed to last as long as the owner and some marine, generator or power station peak load diesels are designed for max life. The EU car companies design engines that consider oil consumption and long OCI's as important performance targets, but they are sold in the US through US companies also more interested in CAFE credits, short OCI's and using cheap oil. If you have to keep topping up the oil, that is of no concern to the dealer and if your engine fails or starts drinking more oil than fuel, then that gives them a chance to sell you another. Very few manufacturers are in a financial position to worry about their long term company reputation or concerns about not providing the correct info to customers.
You will have to get used to my blunt manner as I did have to spend some years contracting for the US military and suffering from silly antics of mechanics doing things like overfilling the oil or driving around with warning lights on. We often used a top quality 10/40 in small trucks and cars (They try to keep the number of different oils to a minimum to avoid complicating the supply line situation) that were of the same engine block as sold for civie use in the US and 5/20. The US Army OCI varied with the operational area due to dust concerns mostly, but the oil monitors were reset by some folks I worked with to 2 or 3 times the civil OCI. The US Army did employ some very good engineering contractors and sent back oil samples from trucks for analysis in the US and the results were good. If I have some more time I will dig around for the file as it is listed in Google, although it's not for Ford blocks. The Humvee study should be easy to find although I have not read that one, as I left before it was completed. I will check on the oil types later, although I know one was Castrol Magnetec 10/40 (Overseas) and the other was a Mobil 10/40 that was a very similar part synthetic.
This is a public place so it is would be good to reduce the swearing, although I tend to put on block the offenders or folks that list qualifications.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: skyship
My real beef is with the information supplied by the main vehicle manufacturers as it is biased in favour of thin oils to cut fuel consumption.


There are many nice technologies and changes we've seen when it comes to fuel economy, and plenty of bad ones. Before I worry about 20 grade oils, I'll worry first about cylinder deactivation and direct injection.

Also note that not "all" mention of 30 grades has disappeared in the U.S. or Japan. Nissan still relies heavily on 30 grades, as does GM. Ford hasn't completely abandoned them either, and uses some 50 grades, and Chrysler uses some 40 grades, and I'm not just talking about the Cummins diesel.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Chrysler even allows 50 weight by TSB on my car for oil squirter 'warbling', a noise experienced by some owners at idle.

Oil weight is obviously best determined by the manufacturer, but they use the INTENDED USAGE to determine the spec.

How anyone could spec 20w oil for a heavy duty truck chassis is beyond rational understanding. Doesn't matter which engine. It's what it will be doing!

Overkill's Mustang example is perfect-nearly exact same motors spec'd for drastically different oils based on the intended use. Chrysler does the same thing with the hemi, 20w for the 5.7 and 40w for the 6.1/6.4's.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Chrysler even allows 50 weight by TSB on my car for oil squirter 'warbling', a noise experienced by some owners at idle.

Oil weight is obviously best determined by the manufacturer, but they use the INTENDED USAGE to determine the spec.

How anyone could spec 20w oil for a heavy duty truck chassis is beyond rational understanding. Doesn't matter which engine. It's what it will be doing!

Overkill's Mustang example is perfect-nearly exact same motors spec'd for drastically different oils based on the intended use. Chrysler does the same thing with the hemi, 20w for the 5.7 and 40w for the 6.1/6.4's.


I agree with every word! The main reason why most hybrids can use 20 grades might be mostly design related, but I did not mention that a hybrid engine operates at near constant RPM under only moderate loads when running and that is real easy on the oil. Some folks have to use max power nearly all day or in the case of the boy racers keep redlining the RPM and they do need the thick oils, along with extended OCI fans, although they also need the new full synthetic long life oil and filters.
There is no telling a Ford fan or dealer that there should be alternatives listed, as they just point at their documents and advertising and say it says dinoblend 5/20. This new engine does have a good reputation so far, so I wonder what kind of OCI would be possible with a top quality 5/40 G4 Synthetic (Castrol Edge or LM Synthoil 5/40 etc) and a long life or bypass filter.

 

[skyship]

IS THIS THE CORRECT ENGINE:
FORD E450 2012
Ford USA License plate:
Engine: E-450 6.8 V10 (2008 - ) Date: 7-1-2013
· Capacity : Capacity 5,7 liter
· Use : Normal
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 7500 miles / 6 months
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

· Use : Severe
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 5000 miles / 6 months / 200 hours
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

It lists that engine as in current production and the above info is from the US page (Under vans) of the Liqui Moly oil finder. The Germans only accept original design spec sheets, so it must be the wrong engine!
OIL FINDER:
LIQUI MOLY (USA) OIL FINDER

 

[demarpaint]

What I don't understand in all of this discussion is this: I agree this engine still needs some time before Ford or anyone else is going to start ripping it apart for oil use, and odds are they won't. I'd be willing to bet they say its within allowable limits and send the OP on his way, next visit after they check things out. Now lets say they agree there is a problem [which I still doubt], but anyway for the sake of this discussion they do agree something is wrong. If changing over to a 30 grade oil reduces the consumption, I can almost guarantee you they will allow it, and not touch that engine. Yes I am fully aware in some cases engines use less oil going thinner, I read the Shell study. There are also many documented cases where going thicker lowers consumption too. Its a lot cheaper trying that than warrantying an engine. Flame away.

Oh yea and for those who don't like 'JMO', that's just JMO. Based on many years of experience, experimentation, and a lot of reading.

As a side note I'd like to see compression readings and leak down results once that engine is fully broken in.

 

[toyotaguy]

Why is it "normal" to burn oil in a new car? My Toyota didn't lose any oil from the time I drove off the lot with 10 miles on it. Now I'm over 120,000 Still no oil loss

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: toyotaguy
Why is it "normal" to burn oil in a new car? My Toyota didn't lose any oil from the time I drove off the lot with 10 miles on it. Now I'm over 120,000 Still no oil loss


Some companies will say a qt/1,0000 miles is normal. I've also heard stories of less.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: toyotaguy
Why is it "normal" to burn oil in a new car? My Toyota didn't lose any oil from the time I drove off the lot with 10 miles on it. Now I'm over 120,000 Still no oil loss


Old engines used to need time for the rings etc to knock off cylinder wall high spots and bed themselves in, the bearings also polished themselves up. When an engine was run in for the first period before OCI the manufacturer recommended you be gentle and not use too much right boot or high revs.
Modern engines are supposed to be manufactured to much better tollerances and modern factory fill oils (If required) allow for normal operation after delivery of the vehicle.
A good modern engine uses very little oil from day one (If you use the best oil type and grade), BUT all engines can turn into oil burners if you give them a hard time. Every engine type is different and you do sometimes get unusual oil consumption before the first OCI, but if it does not stop after the first OCI that is not a good sign in terms of long term engine life, as it could be a Monday morning job in either the US final assembly plant (Piston dropped on floor) or some back street shop in Bombay that makes the rings or valve guide oil seals.
Just joking, as India has some real good companies and I think of that every time I stamp on my brakes, as the discs were made in Coventry and the pads in Bombay. Luckily the R&D and QA was from Sweden.

 

[SAJEFFC]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: SAJEFFC


I had an E450 30 ft motorhome a few yrs ago with the V10 and 4:56 gears. It weighed 13,000 lbs wet and I pulled a 18ft 3500lb race car trailer with it.


Wow what kind of fuel economy did you get with it?
That's the funny part, that monster would get 10-11 mpg on the highway at 65-70 without the trailer. Hook the trailer up and it would only drop to 8-9 mpg....and that's running the Onan generator also. Its hot in Texas lol. Scary sounding mileage I know but not really for 16K plus pounds!

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.



this has been my experience with the modular engine as well. ive owned 5 of them and the first two would use more oil with 10w30 or 5w30 than 5w20. a strange thing to wrap the mind around, but it is just proof that the ford engines that spec 5w20 are happy running 5w20



mine wasnt. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg

 

[skyship]

PART OF JIMS POST:
this has been my experience with the modular engine as well. ive owned 5 of them and the first two would use more oil with 10w30 or 5w30 than 5w20. a strange thing to wrap the mind around, but it is just proof that the ford engines that spec 5w20 are happy running 5w20

UMM, you have to compare like with like in oil consumption terms, so to say it reduced oil consumption changing from 30 to 20 is only of interest if the base stocks and additives are the same. A 10/30 is a different oil in terms of additives and base stock and it could produce a different oil consumption in either direction. For example if it is a G4 full synthetic with a very high Calcium content it might dissolve some sludge or varnish and increase the oil consumption. The 20 grade might be a cheap dinoblend and form varnish reducing the oil leaks and oil burning from valve guide oil seals.
If you change from Castrol Edge 0/20 to Edge 0/40, or from GTX 5/30 to 5/40 I will eat my hat if the oil consumption increased.
I might be a Brit sent overseas, but the Germans nearly always insist on 5/40 when there is a choice with older engines. My own Volvo is approved for 5/30 or 40 and all the dealers and Iffy lubes insist I can only use 5/40 (Except Mobil who say 0/40) for the full 20K km OCI. The reason is simple, oil consumption at high power settings is lower.
I have a lot of respect for the German auto engineers (Most are from overseas) and if they list 5/30 and 40 for this engine (If I got the right model as there are a number) and HC synthetics then if you are using some cheap dyno blend 5/20 and using high revs, with a short OCI and lots of top up oil, good luck as you may need it in the long term.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: skyship
IS THIS THE CORRECT ENGINE:
FORD E450 2012
Ford USA License plate:
Engine: E-450 6.8 V10 (2008 - ) Date: 7-1-2013
· Capacity : Capacity 5,7 liter
· Use : Normal
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 7500 miles / 6 months
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

· Use : Severe
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 5000 miles / 6 months / 200 hours
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

It lists that engine as in current production and the above info is from the US page (Under vans) of the Liqui Moly oil finder. The Germans only accept original design spec sheets, so it must be the wrong engine!
OIL FINDER:
LIQUI MOLY (USA) OIL FINDER


Does LM make a 5w20? I couldn't find one on their site

They obviously aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

And please expand on your last point. My M5 requires an oil that meets LL-01. That covers a wide range of 0w30 to 5w40 lubricants. It isn't a viscosity spec. Ford has their own oil specifications for their gasoline engines that include, 20, 30 and 50 weight oils.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: SAJEFFC
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: SAJEFFC


I had an E450 30 ft motorhome a few yrs ago with the V10 and 4:56 gears. It weighed 13,000 lbs wet and I pulled a 18ft 3500lb race car trailer with it.


Wow what kind of fuel economy did you get with it?
That's the funny part, that monster would get 10-11 mpg on the highway at 65-70 without the trailer. Hook the trailer up and it would only drop to 8-9 mpg....and that's running the Onan generator also. Its hot in Texas lol. Scary sounding mileage I know but not really for 16K plus pounds!


I guess it's not that bad considering all the weight!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Chrysler even allows 50 weight by TSB on my car for oil squirter 'warbling', a noise experienced by some owners at idle.

Oil weight is obviously best determined by the manufacturer, but they use the INTENDED USAGE to determine the spec.

How anyone could spec 20w oil for a heavy duty truck chassis is beyond rational understanding. Doesn't matter which engine. It's what it will be doing!

Overkill's Mustang example is perfect-nearly exact same motors spec'd for drastically different oils based on the intended use. Chrysler does the same thing with the hemi, 20w for the 5.7 and 40w for the 6.1/6.4's.


I can see why they spec it, as we need to remember, the SAE grade is nothing but a number. The actual viscosity is going to depend on oil temperature, which is controlled by sump size, cooling capacity and power density. So while the V10 is a large engine, it has a relatively low power density and equipped with an oil cooler, I'm betting the oil temps are kept quite low.

I'm split on the Modulars with regards to using a 20 or 30 weight. I say split because the early Modular engines, the ones that were back-spec'd to 5w20, have a lower volume oil pump than the newer units. And there were a few crossover years (like 2002, my 5.4L) where 5w20 was on the cap, but the engine design hadn't changed.

Now, I fully believe that Ford designed the modular to thrive on thinner lubricants than its predecessor, but the fact that when 5w20 became regularly available and the "defacto" spec for the family, that the oil pump was upgraded (I know this coincides somewhat with VCT, which of course requires oil pressure too) is what keeps me running 30-weight oils in ours.

I believe there is enough evidence out there that the 5w20 lubricants in the lower power density Modular engines, especially considering Ford's thermal monitoring and control with regards to oil temperature, are perfectly safe and result in excellent engine life. Now do I think they are OPTIMAL? Perhaps not. Maybe a 0w30 could provide a better margin of safety, but given the demographic and usage profile of these vehicles, I think you would get a lot of push-back spec'ing a lubricant that is expensive and less readily available for this engine family in this application.

Now in the higher power density apps like Coyote where the engine is making 420HP instead of the 360HP it makes in the truck? and the Track Pack version of the SAME engine spec's 5w50? RED FLAG!! That's CAFE. Obviously power density is high enough here that it can ovewhelm the lubricant cooling capacity of the system and elevate oil temps significantly. But Coyote makes a lot more HP/L than the 6.8L V10 or the 3V 5.4L.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: toyotaguy
Why is it "normal" to burn oil in a new car? My Toyota didn't lose any oil from the time I drove off the lot with 10 miles on it. Now I'm over 120,000 Still no oil loss


This engine has 6 more cylinders and displaces 5L more than your 1.8L Toyota engine. By that metric alone, oil consumption comparisons between the two engines cannot be made.

However, as was mentioned to the OP numerous times, the engine is still breaking in, so it is quite likely that consumption will taper off significantly.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.



this has been my experience with the modular engine as well. ive owned 5 of them and the first two would use more oil with 10w30 or 5w30 than 5w20. a strange thing to wrap the mind around, but it is just proof that the ford engines that spec 5w20 are happy running 5w20


When you consider that thinner oils have thicker films mid-stroke at the top ring of the piston, and that higher viscosity oils operate under higher pressure (all else equal), this is hardly surprising and just reaffirms the published research which shows that thicker oils may=more consumption. It depends on where the oil is being consumed. If oil is getting past worn valve stem seals or leaking, thicker oil may help consumption. In a new(er) engine, it's more likely to increase consumption.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: electrolover

mine wasnt. It rattled like heck with 5/20. 30k later with 5/30 and it doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. In reality the same 5/20 "spec" engine has 5/30 on the cap in other countries. Dont drink the coolaide. There is no mechanical reason for it. Ford just wants the extra .00001 mpg


Both yours and mine are what are called "anecdotal reports." Anecdotally speaking again, my 5.4L was no quieter on Motorcraft 10W30 than it was on Motorcraft 5W20, Royal Purple 5W20 or Castrol GTX 5W20.

But the bottom line is, for whatever reason Ford did it (and I really don't care why), they qualified the use of 5W20 for most Ford engines in most situations. In the 13 or so years since, there hasn't been a rash of engine failures because of it. I've never seen even ONE documented failure because 5W20 was used (seems like there have to be a few, though, given the wide range of extreme operational situations in which 5W20 would be inadequate). For that reason, I can state with some certainty that there is no "mechanical reason" to run a thicker oil in these 5w20-spec'ed Ford engines, unless specified by Ford in special cases, dictated by operational conditions or some other common-sense, situationally-based reason a knowledgable owner might encounter. I contend that going heavier, without any clear, proven, "mechanical reason" is the true coolaid drinking because it's done on the basis of some "belief" not necessarily on proven fact. If you or anyone else can provide a study or long term testing that indicates the service/reliability record of the Ford Modular engine improve with 5W30, or some heavier oil, I am always open to having my mind changed. Without that, anything you or anyone else says is sheer speculation.

Frankly I don't really CARE whether the oil spec'ed by an OEM is thick or thin. It is what it is. I put some faith in OEM testing and qualifications because it is logical to do so until I have some concrete reason to doubt it in specific cases. If Ford did it for CAFE credits... who cares. They QUALIFIED it in testing and many millions of miles of operational use by customers have proven them largely right. Is 5W20 optimal in all cases, even in the Ford engines so spec'ed... of course not! But for the vast, vast, vast, overwhelming majority of operators, it is. It's really quite simple.

 

[skyship]

Yep, they make a 5/20 and here is the link:
LM 5/20
Too busy to go check specs.
Data sheet:
5/20 DATA SHEET


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
IS THIS THE CORRECT ENGINE:
FORD E450 2012
Ford USA License plate:
Engine: E-450 6.8 V10 (2008 - ) Date: 7-1-2013
· Capacity : Capacity 5,7 liter
· Use : Normal
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 7500 miles / 6 months
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

· Use : Severe
· Intervals : Check 1 months
: Change 5000 miles / 6 months / 200 hours
· Products : Top Tec 4600 5W-30
: Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
: Longtime High Tech 5W-30

It lists that engine as in current production and the above info is from the US page (Under vans) of the Liqui Moly oil finder. The Germans only accept original design spec sheets, so it must be the wrong engine!
OIL FINDER:
LIQUI MOLY (USA) OIL FINDER


Does LM make a 5w20? I couldn't find one on their site

They obviously aren't going to recommend a product they don't make.

And please expand on your last point. My M5 requires an oil that meets LL-01. That covers a wide range of 0w30 to 5w40 lubricants. It isn't a viscosity spec. Ford has their own oil specifications for their gasoline engines that include, 20, 30 and 50 weight oils.