Help picking oil for 900whp Audi TTRS

Geez 900whp coming out of a puny 2.5l to Audi TT wheels? It takes some balls to floor it cause I'd struggle to. I hope that transmission survives. But e85 can be rough on oil and 1k a year isn't much but yearly changes is as far as I'd go. I'd probably use something cheaper but still great like m1 0w-40 and change it twice a year. Service the trans too. But geez I hope that 4 banger lives.
Car does 1/4 in the 9s...recommends something "cheaper". Clearly not up on the 5-cylinder "DAZA" TTRS and RS3s that can be heavily modfied. The dual-clutch auto has no issues with this kind of power when tuned properly.
 
It’s probably not fair to lump esters all together under that statement. It really depends on the ester. There are some as you describe and then there are others that are very hydroliticly stable. As with many things the correct choices yield good results.
Do the typical ones that are currently used in commercial preparations fit that assessment? Are you talking more about 'custom' esters in a formulation? Is there any ester formulation oil products on the market you think could be used in the OP situation? I do know that some of the cheaper ester blends haven't faired well with e85 but always wondered about the blanket statement on esters.
 
This beast should be getting HPL oil period. Love the DAZA 5-banger power monsters. Hurting all those fragile muscle car guy feelings....hahaha
Hey @High Performance Lubricants this sounds like a great application for SuperCar 0W40 to this amateur’s ears… what’s your take on what would fit the OP’s needs? Has enough information been shared to give a recommendation yet?
 
Do the typical ones that are currently used in commercial preparations fit that assessment? Are you talking more about 'custom' esters in a formulation? Is there any ester formulation oil products on the market you think could be used in the OP situation? I do know that some of the cheaper ester blends haven't faired well with e85 but always wondered about the blanket statement on esters.

The beautiful thing here is we have a resident Ester expert on the forum. Tom NJ is the most qualified person here on the topic.

David
 
The beautiful thing here is we have a resident Ester expert on the forum. Tom NJ is the most qualified person here on the topic.

David
@Tom NJ could you please expound on some of the benefits and operational details of what Dave is referring to? Since we’ve now got these oils available, learning exactly why the performance justifies the price would be awesome… in layman’s terms, of course 😂
 
There are esters and there are esters – the company I worked for made 80 different esters, including about 50 different POEs, all designed for lubrication. The beauty of ester chemistry is versatility, that is, the ability to design molecules with specific properties for specific applications by changing the ester molecular structure utilizing the broad choice of available raw materials. In addition to being able to vary physical properties such as viscosity, VI, volatility, lubricity, pour point and flash point, one can also vary chemical and performance properties such as oxidative stability, coking tendencies, hydrolytic stability, biodegradability, additive solubility, and seal compatibility. This versatility allows custom designing base oils, hence the great number of available esters.

Having been retired for nearly 16 years, I don’t know which esters are being used in today’s formulations. Traditionally PCMOs used POEs with high VIs and lubricity such as TMP C8C10, mainly as adjusting fluids for additive solubility and seal compatibility with PAOs. With the availability of lower cost, more polar Group III “synthetic” base oils, high cost POEs are not as needed as with PAOs, and have been replaced to some extent with alkylated naphthalenes (ANs).

Regarding HPL's oils, and for that matter all other brands, I do not know the formulations and have not seen comparative engine and fleet data, so I have no basis for a meaningful opinion on their relative performance and value. Like most people I am not able to scientifically determine oil performance differences by driving my vehicles or using UOAs, and so tend to rely on approvals and third party certifications. In the case of specialty oils, however, these may not be feasible and may have to be replaced with bench data and trust in the formulator. Dr. Rudnick is certainly an experienced and respected formulator.

Regarding hydrolytic stability with esters, this is not generally a problem in the field, partly because POEs are often used in high temperature applications where water does not exist, such as jet engines and industrial curing ovens. While the ester molecule can be “un-done” back into acids and alcohols, the conditions to do so are rather severe. Esters have been used in PCMOs for 50 years and hydrolysis has not been a significant field issue, but that may be different with alcohol fuels such as E85. I have not seen data on ester performance with alcohol fuels so I can’t comment on this.

That said, if hydrolytic stability is an issue it can be controlled with ester structure. By placing molecular branches near the ester linkage one can sterically hinder the reaction with water, even to the extent of matching hydrocarbons in hydrolytic stability. Such chemistry is common in POE refrigeration oils, but I don’t know if it is being used in motor oils. The downside is a lowering of VI and some impact on low temperature flow, both of which can be mitigated by reacting other acids onto the molecule.

Bottom line is that esters can be structured to provide a balance of properties optimized for a specific application. Unfortunately many formulators do not take advantage of this versatility because it requires a close and trusting relationship with the ester supplier and an extensive testing matrix. Easier to just test the ester the supplier offers or select from a physical property table.

For a more detailed discussion of esters and their properties, see my paper on the subject here: Esters in Synthetic Lubricants
 
It’s probably not fair to lump esters all together under that statement. It really depends on the ester. There are some as you describe and then there are others that are very hydroliticly stable. As with many things the correct choices yield good results.
SAT word of the day. I can't even pronounce that!
 
There are esters and there are esters – the company I worked for made 80 different esters, including about 50 different POEs, all designed for lubrication. The beauty of ester chemistry is versatility, that is, the ability to design molecules with specific properties for specific applications by changing the ester molecular structure utilizing the broad choice of available raw materials. In addition to being able to vary physical properties such as viscosity, VI, volatility, lubricity, pour point and flash point, one can also vary chemical and performance properties such as oxidative stability, coking tendencies, hydrolytic stability, biodegradability, additive solubility, and seal compatibility. This versatility allows custom designing base oils, hence the great number of available esters.

Having been retired for nearly 16 years, I don’t know which esters are being used in today’s formulations. Traditionally PCMOs used POEs with high VIs and lubricity such as TMP C8C10, mainly as adjusting fluids for additive solubility and seal compatibility with PAOs. With the availability of lower cost, more polar Group III “synthetic” base oils, high cost POEs are not as needed as with PAOs, and have been replaced to some extent with alkylated naphthalenes (ANs).

Regarding HPL's oils, and for that matter all other brands, I do not know the formulations and have not seen comparative engine and fleet data, so I have no basis for a meaningful opinion on their relative performance and value. Like most people I am not able to scientifically determine oil performance differences by driving my vehicles or using UOAs, and so tend to rely on approvals and third party certifications. In the case of specialty oils, however, these may not be feasible and may have to be replaced with bench data and trust in the formulator. Dr. Rudnick is certainly an experienced and respected formulator.

Regarding hydrolytic stability with esters, this is not generally a problem in the field, partly because POEs are often used in high temperature applications where water does not exist, such as jet engines and industrial curing ovens. While the ester molecule can be “un-done” back into acids and alcohols, the conditions to do so are rather severe. Esters have been used in PCMOs for 50 years and hydrolysis has not been a significant field issue, but that may be different with alcohol fuels such as E85. I have not seen data on ester performance with alcohol fuels so I can’t comment on this.

That said, if hydrolytic stability is an issue it can be controlled with ester structure. By placing molecular branches near the ester linkage one can sterically hinder the reaction with water, even to the extent of matching hydrocarbons in hydrolytic stability. Such chemistry is common in POE refrigeration oils, but I don’t know if it is being used in motor oils. The downside is a lowering of VI and some impact on low temperature flow, both of which can be mitigated by reacting other acids onto the molecule.

Bottom line is that esters can be structured to provide a balance of properties optimized for a specific application. Unfortunately many formulators do not take advantage of this versatility because it requires a close and trusting relationship with the ester supplier and an extensive testing matrix. Easier to just test the ester the supplier offers or select from a physical property table.

For a more detailed discussion of esters and their properties, see my paper on the subject here: Esters in Synthetic Lubricants
Wow, thanks Tom!!
 
There’s more.
Enlighten us.

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I could NEVER trust pump E85 as it only needs to be E51 or above to be sold as E85 and it sounds like you lean on it pretty good at times. Hope you have a way to test the % that comes out of the pump and adjust timing/fuel accordingly.
 
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