The engine in my decrepit van (87 Astro, 131k, no carpet or insulation)
is much quieter when I put Valvoline MaxLife in it. I would say try that in the recommended viscosity.
Help Needed on Quieting Engine and Oil Choice
- Thread starter Bugshu
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Yeah, like others said, Honda injector are noisy. So there isn't much you can do other than wrapping them up with some inflamable insulation.
Regarding to active noise cancellation. It is more than just install the speaker in reverse. You have to get some sort of DSP signals to go through and the position of microphone, speakers, and the target quiet spot is all important consideration. The acoustic isolation is not easily dealt with in an open environment like car.
Regarding to active noise cancellation. It is more than just install the speaker in reverse. You have to get some sort of DSP signals to go through and the position of microphone, speakers, and the target quiet spot is all important consideration. The acoustic isolation is not easily dealt with in an open environment like car.
Ok, thanks for the replies so far.
As I understand it, judging works like this. You drive your car up to the judging stand and it must be fully operational and street legal. During the SQ phase you have 1 - 2 judges sit in your car. You are required to show them the volume control, on and off switch, and track forward or backward switch and those are the only 3 things in your car that they can touch. They hand you a CD and you insert it and then you leave the vehicle and they do the listening and scoring. Some judges take 5-10 minutes to score a vehicle and others take 45-60 minutes to do the same. Sometimes judges will like a car and stay in it and sometimes it will take them awhile to minutely evaluate it. Each judge is different and has different ears. They are not allowed to move the seats, or change any settings including turning an engine on or off or changing the air conditioner. One guy that I know decided he would try and eliminate engine noise and installed 11 deep cycle batteries in a covered bed in a truck. He got a 45 minute judge and still lost when his stereo system died. Others will get a 10 minute judge who will mark them down if they hear noise.
Most SQ judges listen to music at an average level of 70 db. In SQ judging they will test your car for dynamics which means there will be loud passages that might read 100 and soft passages where a flutes whisper will hold the melody. You are also judged for imaging and staging. The sound of your stereo should extend beyond the doors and roof. If you can get your speakers (especially low midbass) to sound like its positioned in the area of the radiator then you will get bonus points.
Honestly, my soundstage is pretty good and I have width forever. Im probably about 12-18 inches minimum beyond the doors of the car. Height is less impressive as Im probably lucky to achieve a few inches above the roof and in some tracks image height seems to compress and be limited by the roof of the car. In soft jazz tracks Im a bit beyond the windshield and Ive heard a Marsalis CD where it sounds like hes standing on my hood. Im not close to the radiator as far as image positioning on a string bass. Honestly, I have very good imaging but I want more and thats where you guys are going to have to help.
Now getting down to nuts and bolts, Ive read thousands of posts by each of you and Ive heard many times from you claims of the engine running smoother or quieter when this oil was used or that additive was used. The term used frequently is that the engine plated up and ran like silk.
These judges have golden ears and they take classes and undergo training to qualify to be judges. They can notice differences between 1-2 db of noise in an amplifier and as none of us really has an engine so very quiet that we dont even notice if its on or off Id suggest that minor changes in noise level of an engine might help.
Ok, lets get to specific questions.
The first question is just how exactly do I address the fuel rails and wrap them? Ive been a believer in fuel power for awhile so I cant just start using it and improve as its kind of already there. If I could figure out what a fuel rail was and I could wrap it then what would I wrap it with to quiet it? And how much would this help? Im guessing its a hose and it wouldnt hurt the car to wrap it? Are we talking duct tape or mechanical tape or true sound deadening?
Can an oil plate up an engine and let it run quieter and smoother even at idle? Many times Ive heard people proclaim that moly plates up an engine and it smooths out. Is thicker quieter or is thinner quieter? Do esters like Redline or GC run quieter than conventional or PAO?
Are additives helpful as well? Some additives do boost your moly and others have esters?
I have put pipes on the Pilot and the exhaust extends about 1.5 inches beyond the bumper. I dont really want longer pipes and I dont want a "flashy" car and Im trying to keep things simple looking and stock.
Does anyone have experience with putting sound deadening or Dynamat under the hood? Would that help muffle some of the engine noise? Would it melt and cause problems?
Ok, enough questions for now. And I thank you for your help.
I will probably have more in the future. Please dont limit yourselves to these ideas as Im all ears if you have a good idea not yet mentioned.
Thanks Everyone !!!!!
Happy Motoring All,
)
Bugshu
PS Im aware that consumer reports bashed the Pilot as far as road noise and it was perhaps their #1 gripe about the vehicle even though in the spring of 2004 they rated it the #1 top pick of all 3 row SUVs including some high dollar Lexus, Audi, and Acura models. You would be amazed what 100 sq feet of sound deadening will do to road noise. I could almost argue that Im quieter than a Lexus LX470 for about $30K less. I dont really know why people buy Lexus cars but everytime I see somebody in one they have a killer blonde by their side so who am I to argue with them. Anyway, the Pilot is judged in a stationary position and with the engine at idle so the fact that my Pilot is arguably one of the most tomb silent Pilots in the country at 70 mph is rather irrelevant. Still, if you want to know ..... its possible to get Lexus quality cabin silence at a far lower price than just buying a Lexus. Thanks for your comments!!!
As I understand it, judging works like this. You drive your car up to the judging stand and it must be fully operational and street legal. During the SQ phase you have 1 - 2 judges sit in your car. You are required to show them the volume control, on and off switch, and track forward or backward switch and those are the only 3 things in your car that they can touch. They hand you a CD and you insert it and then you leave the vehicle and they do the listening and scoring. Some judges take 5-10 minutes to score a vehicle and others take 45-60 minutes to do the same. Sometimes judges will like a car and stay in it and sometimes it will take them awhile to minutely evaluate it. Each judge is different and has different ears. They are not allowed to move the seats, or change any settings including turning an engine on or off or changing the air conditioner. One guy that I know decided he would try and eliminate engine noise and installed 11 deep cycle batteries in a covered bed in a truck. He got a 45 minute judge and still lost when his stereo system died. Others will get a 10 minute judge who will mark them down if they hear noise.
Most SQ judges listen to music at an average level of 70 db. In SQ judging they will test your car for dynamics which means there will be loud passages that might read 100 and soft passages where a flutes whisper will hold the melody. You are also judged for imaging and staging. The sound of your stereo should extend beyond the doors and roof. If you can get your speakers (especially low midbass) to sound like its positioned in the area of the radiator then you will get bonus points.
Honestly, my soundstage is pretty good and I have width forever. Im probably about 12-18 inches minimum beyond the doors of the car. Height is less impressive as Im probably lucky to achieve a few inches above the roof and in some tracks image height seems to compress and be limited by the roof of the car. In soft jazz tracks Im a bit beyond the windshield and Ive heard a Marsalis CD where it sounds like hes standing on my hood. Im not close to the radiator as far as image positioning on a string bass. Honestly, I have very good imaging but I want more and thats where you guys are going to have to help.
Now getting down to nuts and bolts, Ive read thousands of posts by each of you and Ive heard many times from you claims of the engine running smoother or quieter when this oil was used or that additive was used. The term used frequently is that the engine plated up and ran like silk.
These judges have golden ears and they take classes and undergo training to qualify to be judges. They can notice differences between 1-2 db of noise in an amplifier and as none of us really has an engine so very quiet that we dont even notice if its on or off Id suggest that minor changes in noise level of an engine might help.
Ok, lets get to specific questions.
The first question is just how exactly do I address the fuel rails and wrap them? Ive been a believer in fuel power for awhile so I cant just start using it and improve as its kind of already there. If I could figure out what a fuel rail was and I could wrap it then what would I wrap it with to quiet it? And how much would this help? Im guessing its a hose and it wouldnt hurt the car to wrap it? Are we talking duct tape or mechanical tape or true sound deadening?
Can an oil plate up an engine and let it run quieter and smoother even at idle? Many times Ive heard people proclaim that moly plates up an engine and it smooths out. Is thicker quieter or is thinner quieter? Do esters like Redline or GC run quieter than conventional or PAO?
Are additives helpful as well? Some additives do boost your moly and others have esters?
I have put pipes on the Pilot and the exhaust extends about 1.5 inches beyond the bumper. I dont really want longer pipes and I dont want a "flashy" car and Im trying to keep things simple looking and stock.
Does anyone have experience with putting sound deadening or Dynamat under the hood? Would that help muffle some of the engine noise? Would it melt and cause problems?
Ok, enough questions for now. And I thank you for your help.
I will probably have more in the future. Please dont limit yourselves to these ideas as Im all ears if you have a good idea not yet mentioned.
Thanks Everyone !!!!!
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
PS Im aware that consumer reports bashed the Pilot as far as road noise and it was perhaps their #1 gripe about the vehicle even though in the spring of 2004 they rated it the #1 top pick of all 3 row SUVs including some high dollar Lexus, Audi, and Acura models. You would be amazed what 100 sq feet of sound deadening will do to road noise. I could almost argue that Im quieter than a Lexus LX470 for about $30K less. I dont really know why people buy Lexus cars but everytime I see somebody in one they have a killer blonde by their side so who am I to argue with them. Anyway, the Pilot is judged in a stationary position and with the engine at idle so the fact that my Pilot is arguably one of the most tomb silent Pilots in the country at 70 mph is rather irrelevant. Still, if you want to know ..... its possible to get Lexus quality cabin silence at a far lower price than just buying a Lexus. Thanks for your comments!!!
I nominate you for the understatement of the week
Belts usually make extra noise and quiet up for awhile right after you spray them (I use silicone). If you have frequency selective sound meter you may find that simply tweaking the idle speed up or down a hair could pull the db down at a selective frequency? Adjust the valves to the tight spec? Add subtract or reposition muffler and tailpipe hanger to eliminate or dull any harmonics or buzzing? Locate or extend the air intake to the engine as far away from the cab into the grill area?
Bugshu, take a look around this site:
b-quiet
You said the car is dynamatted, but have you done a thorough job of sound absorbtion material and damping material on the hood and firewall?
You said you used 100 sq ft of material, but that isn't a lot for a fanatical job.
This guy used 350 sq ft in a Corvette. That's about the amount I have in my garage waiting to be installed in my Corvette.
Corvette Acoustics
At least you have installed yours instead of leaving it sitting in your garage, so you're ahead of me
The Corvette guy had different objectives than you, he was mostly after road noise. You would want to focus more on engine compartment noise.
Anything you can do to make the engine run quieter is naturally good.
You might try B-Quiet's underhood sound proofing and at least double layers of dynamat and absorbing material on the firewall.
If you hold a small (1/4 inch or so) hose up to your ear and move the other end around potential noise sources it will help you isolate where noise is coming from. Then you can damp those surfaces.
You mentioned amplifier fans. Have you already got them running too slow to hear?
b-quiet
You said the car is dynamatted, but have you done a thorough job of sound absorbtion material and damping material on the hood and firewall?
You said you used 100 sq ft of material, but that isn't a lot for a fanatical job.
This guy used 350 sq ft in a Corvette. That's about the amount I have in my garage waiting to be installed in my Corvette.
Corvette Acoustics
At least you have installed yours instead of leaving it sitting in your garage, so you're ahead of me
The Corvette guy had different objectives than you, he was mostly after road noise. You would want to focus more on engine compartment noise.
Anything you can do to make the engine run quieter is naturally good.
You might try B-Quiet's underhood sound proofing and at least double layers of dynamat and absorbing material on the firewall.
If you hold a small (1/4 inch or so) hose up to your ear and move the other end around potential noise sources it will help you isolate where noise is coming from. Then you can damp those surfaces.
You mentioned amplifier fans. Have you already got them running too slow to hear?
WoW !!!!
350 feet is a lot. As you mentioned, I dont think Im in the fanatical category of sound deadening. The car looked silver when it was done but it didnt have two layers of sound deadening. How do you get the carpet back down when you are using 350 square feet of the stuff? OooooK !!!!
Honestly, between Ensolite and Rubber deadening I think the floors and doors are pretty good. There is nothing under the headliner and I dont expect that to change and the trunk or more accurately the cargo area may be a bit weak though I think that was dynamatted as well. I dont think that the cargo door was dynamatted. I dont have any sound deadening under the hood or firewalls and thats what I need to learn about and explore. Im guessing that a corvette can post up some serious noise with that beast of an engine in it so it may be a little bit harder to get a more refined lexus like quiet in a Vette.
Wow 350 sq feet in a vette is just Wow !!!! Just the thought of having to re-install trim over that much sound deadening is enough to .... well .... WoW !!!
Im impressed !!!
The link is great and I will take some time to study it.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
350 feet is a lot. As you mentioned, I dont think Im in the fanatical category of sound deadening. The car looked silver when it was done but it didnt have two layers of sound deadening. How do you get the carpet back down when you are using 350 square feet of the stuff? OooooK !!!!
Honestly, between Ensolite and Rubber deadening I think the floors and doors are pretty good. There is nothing under the headliner and I dont expect that to change and the trunk or more accurately the cargo area may be a bit weak though I think that was dynamatted as well. I dont think that the cargo door was dynamatted. I dont have any sound deadening under the hood or firewalls and thats what I need to learn about and explore. Im guessing that a corvette can post up some serious noise with that beast of an engine in it so it may be a little bit harder to get a more refined lexus like quiet in a Vette.
Wow 350 sq feet in a vette is just Wow !!!! Just the thought of having to re-install trim over that much sound deadening is enough to .... well .... WoW !!!
Im impressed !!!
The link is great and I will take some time to study it.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
PS,
I do have amplifier fans. They are special made to run quiet. They are covered with a special carpet to reduce the noise and yet still allow airflow.
Yes they do make noise and I dont know how to stop it without reducing the airflow.
Yes fans are required in the rules. *Sigh* Otherwise, Id probably disconnect them. I dont play music loud enough for my own use to really challenge the amps very often. But hey, the amps should last awhile.
Thanks for your help XS650
Happy Motoring to You,
Bugshu
I do have amplifier fans. They are special made to run quiet. They are covered with a special carpet to reduce the noise and yet still allow airflow.
Yes they do make noise and I dont know how to stop it without reducing the airflow.
Yes fans are required in the rules. *Sigh* Otherwise, Id probably disconnect them. I dont play music loud enough for my own use to really challenge the amps very often. But hey, the amps should last awhile.
Thanks for your help XS650
Happy Motoring to You,
Bugshu
active noise cancellation works, but only for white/pink noise. Belt squeaks, random engine noise and such won't be affected. Wind noise, road noise are handled very well. Fan noise would probably be handled very well, too. One thing to realize is that by reducing the white/pink noise, some irritating squeaks and such can seem much louder.
I use it on my headphones on long airline flights. While it certainly reduces a lot of the wind roar, by doing so I can hear most of the conversations thruout the entire plane, every banged plate in the galley, etc. Sometimes white noise can be good.....
It works like this: a microphone picks up the noise. a computer analyzes the sounds and creates an inverse waveform of the noise. an audio amplifier matches the amplitude of the noise and sends it to speakers in the car, often the regular audio speakers but not always.
The noise is cancelled. It does nothing for non-white/pink noise like talking, music, railroad crossing bells......
Does it work? yes, it works extremely well. It's very expensive but I believe it is an option on some Lexus models and has been for several years.
A DYI version can be made using the computer and circuit from a set of noise cancelling headphones, along with some creative wiring in your existing stereo or easier yet in a separate audio system.
I use it on my headphones on long airline flights. While it certainly reduces a lot of the wind roar, by doing so I can hear most of the conversations thruout the entire plane, every banged plate in the galley, etc. Sometimes white noise can be good.....
It works like this: a microphone picks up the noise. a computer analyzes the sounds and creates an inverse waveform of the noise. an audio amplifier matches the amplitude of the noise and sends it to speakers in the car, often the regular audio speakers but not always.
The noise is cancelled. It does nothing for non-white/pink noise like talking, music, railroad crossing bells......
Does it work? yes, it works extremely well. It's very expensive but I believe it is an option on some Lexus models and has been for several years.
A DYI version can be made using the computer and circuit from a set of noise cancelling headphones, along with some creative wiring in your existing stereo or easier yet in a separate audio system.
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