Help....mixed Hoat with OAT

[Trav]

I am no chemist but I do know is sometimes it doesn't take much of one chemical or substance to act as a catalyst on a much larger amount of another eg 2K paint, a few ounces can fire off a whole gallon rapid quick with some of them.
What we have here is a ego tripper (IMHO) that will not admit he is wrong under any circumstances. Don't waste any more of your time guys this guy will will just keep throwing more dung than found in a Mexican public toilet trying to beat you into submission.

 

[StevieC]

If you both read what I wrote above you would see I'm not condoning the mixing of these two. What I said is that if it happened in no great amounts it's nothing to panic about. I then explained why. I provided proof of this and proof of my own situation where it happened. I also explained the TSB by Chrysler.

Why you both can't read EXACTLY what I wrote and are twisting it into me condoning people to go ahead and use HOAT in OAT systems is beyond me. And it's not an Ego trip either. But I'm not wrong on this, I have literally done this with 0 issues accidentally myself and neither of you have. So I will continue to dig my heals in on this subject.

Originally Posted by StevieC
I'm not saying you should mix HOAT in an OAT cooling system by choice and that it won't lead to sludge. What I'm saying is that HOAT coolants have OAT formulations in them with the addition of other stuff and that mixing a little together isn't going to cause a problem.

At the end of the day use what the OE intended however if a little HOAT makes it into your OAT system, again LITTLE, it's no cause for panic.

That's all I was getting at. Had this been a spill/fill using HOAT as the refill in this OAT system I would agree to change it out. A few cups in an 11 litre (or so) system? Not a problem.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
If you both read what I wrote above you would see I'm not condoning the mixing of these two. What I said is that if it happened in no great amounts it's nothing to panic about. I then explained why. I provided proof of this and proof of my own situation where it happened. I also explained the TSB by Chrysler.

Why you both can't read EXACTLY what I wrote and are twisting it into me condoning people to go ahead and use HOAT in OAT systems is beyond me. And it's not an Ego trip either. But I'm not wrong on this, I have literally done this with 0 issues accidentally myself and neither of you have. So I will continue to dig my heals in on this subject.

Originally Posted by StevieC
I'm not saying you should mix HOAT in an OAT cooling system by choice and that it won't lead to sludge. What I'm saying is that HOAT coolants have OAT formulations in them with the addition of other stuff and that mixing a little together isn't going to cause a problem.

At the end of the day use what the OE intended however if a little HOAT makes it into your OAT system, again LITTLE, it's no cause for panic.

That's all I was getting at. Had this been a spill/fill using HOAT as the refill in this OAT system I would agree to change it out. A few cups in an 11 litre (or so) system? Not a problem.




Stop digging. Letting it die might be prudent here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
If you both read what I wrote above you would see I'm not condoning the mixing of these two. What I said is that if it happened in no great amounts it's nothing to panic about. I then explained why. I provided proof of this and proof of my own situation where it happened. I also explained the TSB by Chrysler.


Again, your own personal anecdote in no way explains away the TSB from Chrysler. 440Magnum did an excellent job going over what was covered in the TSB, if you read what he wrote, you wouldn't be continuing this exchange. Ultimately, that should have been the final word on this subject.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Why you both can't read EXACTLY what I wrote and are twisting it into me condoning people to go ahead and use HOAT in OAT systems is beyond me. And it's not an Ego trip either. But I'm not wrong on this, I have literally done this with 0 issues accidentally myself and neither of you have. So I will continue to dig my heals in on this subject.

demarpaint cited numerous examples from the Jeep forum where negative interactions occurred. Those anecdotes are no less valid than yours. Digging your heels in here certainly comes across as ego-driven. Stating that, absolutely, you aren't wrong simply because nothing blew up enforces that. That's like saying you left a loaded shotgun in your trunk with the safety off and nothing bad happened, ergo, it's safe. You aren't condoning it, buuuuut, if it happens, "no big deal".

Negative interactions between chemicals do not require significant quantities in order to occur. On this topic, since we do not know the exact composition of the products being mixed nobody can say, unequivocally, that mixing them in even small amounts will be safe. The TSB goes as far as indicating that there may in fact be significant issues. Since that's the only formal documentation we have, it should be treated as the authority on this topic.

This isn't the hill to die on.

 

[StevieC]

Please read all my posts again.

 

[KrisZ]

Here are the Corrosion tests listed on Zerex coolants product data sheets. Below are the screenshots of G-05, Asian formula and Dex-cool. I don't see where any of these coolants would not be compatible with metals found in any cooling system and actually cause corrosion.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Please read all my posts again.


I did. People come here for advice, telling them these coolants can be mixed safely in their cooling system is bad advice. As proven by the TSB, knowledgeable members here, and several problems with Chrysler products in doing so. You are doing them and this board where people come seeking help a disservice.

Again, let it die.

 

[Trav]

I did. The bottom line is there is TSB documentation on this and demarpaint is correct when he says they don't write this stuff for fun, they obviously had issues.
Part of being a decent mechanic is not only properly diagnosing the problem but doing a little research into it and that includes looking at TSB's that may pertain to the problem and follow the factory resolution.

If a top up is needed urgently and no like product is available I would suggest using only distilled water (within reason, not a gallon of water in the middle of winter). telling people its okay to mix a little of this or that in is seriously bad advise IMO.

 

[Trav]

Its not a question of causing corrosion when used alone the issue being discussed her is what about when they are mixed. We know there are gasket compatibility issues with some plastic frame gaskets and dexcool and we also know when mixed it can form sludge in the engine, plug radiators and heater cores, etc.
Years ago I did quite a few engines that had this damage as a result of mixed coolant.

 

[StevieC]

I've done it myself accidentally, I never said to do it intentionally, all I said is don't panic if it were to happen in the case of the OP because it was minor amount.
The TSB is written the way it is because of decreased corrosion protection and material incompatibility with the coolant leading to sludge and not the chemicals themselves mixing causing sludge. I provided all the proof I can.

And again I DID THIS MYSELF AND IT WAS FINE. THIS ISN'T ME ADVOCATING FOR IT, THIS IS ME TELLING YOU THAT BAD THINGS DIDN'T HAPPEN WHEN I ACCIDENTALLY MIXED THE TWO CHEMICALLY, AND IF IT'S A SMALL AMOUNT WON'T LEAD TO SLUDGING IN THE COOLING SYSTEM BECAUSE IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO UPSET THE CORROSION PROTECTION IN THE COOLING SYSTEM.

Believe what you want though. I won't back down. And I will continue to post this line the further you push the issue.

Done.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by Trav
Its not a question of causing corrosion when used alone the issue being discussed her is what about when they are mixed. We know there are gasket compatibility issues with some plastic frame gaskets and dexcool and we also know when mixed it can form sludge in the engine, plug radiators and heater cores, etc.
Years ago I did quite a few engines that had this damage as a result of mixed coolant.


Stevie stated numerous times that these OAT and HOAT are compatible with each other, but that HOAT is not compatible with materials found in an OAT designed system. I asked what those materials might be and got no answer. So I posted a direct source, with a standardized test against metals found in cooling systems.

Now, when you mix the two formulas, that's when corrosion can happen because of the chemical reaction between the two formulas, not because one formula is not compatible with metals vs the other. Which is the crux of this whole discussion. All I'm trying to show is that all these formulas are compatible with all metals found in cooling system by themselves. But once they are mixed, there is no easy way of predicting a reaction and some of that reaction may be rust in the system.

 

[StevieC]

Which makes no sense because I posted the ingredients above of each OAT / HOAT formulations and if you look the OAT is literally in the HOAT formulation. The HOAT contains a small amount of another substance which is not sludge inducing unless it comes into contact with materials not compatible with it in large enough quantities.

I also posted information from other coolant manufacturers that specifically call out that HOAT is OAT with extras added.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Quote
There are three basic coolant types on the market today: (IAT) Inorganic Acid Technology, (OAT) Organic Acid Technology and (HOAT) Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Your BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Audi or Volkswagen uses an HOAT coolant. HOAT coolants are derived from OAT coolants with the addition of silicate to protect aluminum surfaces. Many components of your BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen engine and cooling systems are made of aluminum including the cylinder heads and radiators. Although you can mix coolant types without harm, it is highly recommended that you do not. Mixing an HOAT or OAT coolant with an IAT will lose the extended life properties.

More proof not from me... https://www.germanautocenter.com/blog/what-coolant-is-right-for-my-german-automobile


AGAIN, NOT ADVOCATING FOR THIS!

 

[KrisZ]

I think you're drawing wrong conclusions from your own research. All these formulas have to be compatible with all metals used in cooling systems because it's easier to ensure a coolant can be compatible with metals then carefully manage types of metals used in a cooling system to match the coolant.

What you're missing is that after the OAT and HOAT formulas are mixed, they react chemically to where the new mix can cause rust because its PH changed or because some other reaction took place. This is not evidence of HOAT being not compatible with metals, but the new mix of HOAT and OAT not being compatible with metals.

And that's just one possible reaction. Like it was mentioned, since OAT and HOAT are formulas, not ingredients, the ingredients to make them up can be different, so mixing them can result in different reactions. Rust is one of them, another is sludge or particles dropping out, etc. This is confirmed by a lot of complaints and the TSB cited.

 

[StevieC]

Referrer to the last quote above your post. "CAN BE MIXED WITHOUT HARM" I PROVED THIS.

Again before anyone goes off again. I'M NOT ADVOCATING THIS BE DONE INTENTIONALLY.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Referrer to the last quote above your post. "CAN BE MIXED WITHOUT HARM" I PROVED THIS.

Again before anyone goes off again. I'M NOT ADVOCATING THIS BE DONE INTENTIONALLY.


That was in an overflow bottle and chances are that mix stayed in that bottle. So if that mix never entered the actual cooling system, it had no chance to react with metals.

Again, just because you mix the two and you don't get some sort of reaction by itself, doesn't mean that the new mix will react properly with the materials found in the cooling system and under pressure and heat cycles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Which makes no sense because I posted the ingredients above of each OAT / HOAT formulations


If you are referring to the MSDS, those are not a recipe and I already noted that one of the "ingredients" listed for the one product consisted of two other vague families of products:

Originally Posted by StevieC
One Contains: 4% Hydrated inorganic acid,organic acid salts


That tells you nothing. Here's a list that contains 29 organic acid salts:
http://www.aqion.de/site/189

Here's a list of hydrated inorganic acids:
https://www.alfa.com/en/inorganic-acids/

Which ones are in the coolant? We have no idea.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
I think you're drawing wrong conclusions from your own research. All these formulas have to be compatible with all metals used in cooling systems because it's easier to ensure a coolant can be compatible with metals then carefully manage types of metals used in a cooling system to match the coolant.

What you're missing is that after the OAT and HOAT formulas are mixed, they react chemically to where the new mix can cause rust because its PH changed or because some other reaction took place. This is not evidence of HOAT being not compatible with metals, but the new mix of HOAT and OAT not being compatible with metals.

And that's just one possible reaction. Like it was mentioned, since OAT and HOAT are formulas, not ingredients, the ingredients to make them up can be different, so mixing them can result in different reactions. Rust is one of them, another is sludge or particles dropping out, etc. This is confirmed by a lot of complaints and the TSB cited.


Great points. He just can't let it die............There's no shame in admitting he's wrong, or that he made a mistake. Too bad really. The good news is I honestly believe after all this, anyone who reads it and mixes the two is not that bright.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by StevieC
Referrer to the last quote above your post. "CAN BE MIXED WITHOUT HARM" I PROVED THIS.

Again before anyone goes off again. I'M NOT ADVOCATING THIS BE DONE INTENTIONALLY.


That was in an overflow bottle and chances are that mix stayed in that bottle. So if that mix never entered the actual cooling system, it had no chance to react with metals.

Again, just because you mix the two and you don't get some sort of reaction by itself, doesn't mean that the new mix will react properly with the materials found in the cooling system and under pressure and heat cycles.

Drove like that for 1,000km And it expands and contracts regularly. I know this for a fact.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by StevieC
Which makes no sense because I posted the ingredients above of each OAT / HOAT formulations


If you are referring to the MSDS, those are not a recipe and I already noted that one of the "ingredients" listed for the one product consisted of two other vague families of products:

Originally Posted by StevieC
One Contains: 4% Hydrated inorganic acid,organic acid salts


That tells you nothing. Here's a list that contains 29 organic acid salts:
http://www.aqion.de/site/189

Here's a list of hydrated inorganic acids:
https://www.alfa.com/en/inorganic-acids/

Which ones are in the coolant? We have no idea.



There is also proof from other coolant manufacturers websites showing these coolants can be mixed.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by demarpaint

Originally Posted by KrisZ
I think you're drawing wrong conclusions from your own research. All these formulas have to be compatible with all metals used in cooling systems because it's easier to ensure a coolant can be compatible with metals then carefully manage types of metals used in a cooling system to match the coolant.

What you're missing is that after the OAT and HOAT formulas are mixed, they react chemically to where the new mix can cause rust because its PH changed or because some other reaction took place. This is not evidence of HOAT being not compatible with metals, but the new mix of HOAT and OAT not being compatible with metals.

And that's just one possible reaction. Like it was mentioned, since OAT and HOAT are formulas, not ingredients, the ingredients to make them up can be different, so mixing them can result in different reactions. Rust is one of them, another is sludge or particles dropping out, etc. This is confirmed by a lot of complaints and the TSB cited.


Great points. He just can't let it die............There's no shame in admitting he's wrong, or that he made a mistake. Too bad really. The good news is I honestly believe after all this, anyone who reads it and mixes the two is not that bright.

I have admitted I was wrong and stand corrected many times before. No shame in it at all.

This I'm not wrong on because I've done it myself and I certainly won't be called wrong by folks that haven't because of how they are reading a TSB.