Point taken! What about the suggestion of damage from the ZDDP?
HDEO 0W30 hurt economy vs normal 0W30?
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Sorry John, your wrong, I've done it. Granted, it was a great difference, but it was statistically significant.
Enroll in a Probabilty and Statistics class at your local university, and you can learn how to test your data too.
Ringmaster,
Have you checked the additive chemistry of Redline lately? It's not exactly a low ash, low phosphorus formulation. In fact, that's probably the main reason they can't license the stuff. I think RL is an excellent product, but I'd actually use their 5w-20 in any application calling for a conventional SAE 5w-30. Their 5w-30/10w-30 are more like European 5w-40's when it comes to high temp viscosity.
One interesting point is that the xw-30, HDEO's are required to have a high temp,high shear viscosity of at least 3.5 Cp, vs the 2.9 Cp mininum for API/SM, xw-30 grades. So you can find lower vis, friction modified 0w-30s that will outperform an HDEO with regards to fuel efficiency. The Mobil 1, 0w-30 Racing Oil would be a good choice if you can find the stuff.
"Granted, it was a great difference, but it was statistically significant"? Probabilty"?
English classes are also worthwhile...
Have you checked the additive chemistry of Redline lately? It's not exactly a low ash, low phosphorus formulation. In fact, that's probably the main reason they can't license the stuff. I think RL is an excellent product, but I'd actually use their 5w-20 in any application calling for a conventional SAE 5w-30. Their 5w-30/10w-30 are more like European 5w-40's when it comes to high temp viscosity.
One interesting point is that the xw-30, HDEO's are required to have a high temp,high shear viscosity of at least 3.5 Cp, vs the 2.9 Cp mininum for API/SM, xw-30 grades. So you can find lower vis, friction modified 0w-30s that will outperform an HDEO with regards to fuel efficiency. The Mobil 1, 0w-30 Racing Oil would be a good choice if you can find the stuff.
"Granted, it was a great difference, but it was statistically significant"? Probabilty"?
English classes are also worthwhile...
Who needs English classes when you have a spell checker? What I need is a memory improvement class so that I remember to use the spell checker. A typing class probably wouldn't hurt too.quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
English classes are also worthwhile...
I have taken Probabilty and Statistics already and passed with an A. Math is not my strongest subject I had to get a Tudor to pass Calc.!Probabilty and Statistics was one of the easiest class's I ever took! It made complete sense. It also helped that this was the only math class I ever took that allowed us to use our notes ont he test's.
I would like to know number one how large your data set was? I would like to know what calibrated instruments were used to accurately measure fuel flow in relation to milage and power output? What is the resoulution of the instruments used? How did you elimanate all other variables luike atmospheric variations,variations in load, drag variations etc?????What oils were used and what was the difference in their viscous drag? I realise that what you propose is possable but not likely. Few people have the equipment to do such work properly. The lack of controled environment alone add's a lot of variables that are outside of the testers control when test's are not done on a test circuit or dyno. You more then anyone should understand how large your data set would need to be to be significant to anyone but yourself.I have seen some of your threads and math is definately one of your strengths!!!!
I would like to know number one how large your data set was? I would like to know what calibrated instruments were used to accurately measure fuel flow in relation to milage and power output? What is the resoulution of the instruments used? How did you elimanate all other variables luike atmospheric variations,variations in load, drag variations etc?????What oils were used and what was the difference in their viscous drag? I realise that what you propose is possable but not likely. Few people have the equipment to do such work properly. The lack of controled environment alone add's a lot of variables that are outside of the testers control when test's are not done on a test circuit or dyno. You more then anyone should understand how large your data set would need to be to be significant to anyone but yourself.I have seen some of your threads and math is definately one of your strengths!!!!
I would like to add one thing. How do we edit in this new system??? Spelling is not that big of a deal on the internet. If spellcheck was a tool inside the board I would use it. I am too lazy to type up my message in word spell check it and then cut and past into bobistheoilguy! I have too little time as it is too spend on this site!
JAG is a member that comes to my mind when I'm thinking of gas mileage. He is convinced that he gets better mileage with LubroMoly 0w40 than non friction modified GC. I also recall a Liberty owner who claimed to get the best mileage with the old Truck & SUV 5w40. YMMV
I think its reasonable to say that some can detect a mileage difference while others can't.
You can make this as complicated as you want, or if clever, find a method that masks most of the variables you want constrained.
In my case, I had a lengthy commute, at the time. I would go through 2-3 tankfuls every week. Most of the commute was in a rural area and on highways, and consisted of 2 stop-signs, a traffic light, and a right on red. Car was stored in a garage overnight and the climate here over the summer produces boring, dry, hot, weather, which is when the data was collected. Tank was filled at the same gas station, using identical procedures.
Given the above, I could get at least 8 tankfuls of strictly commute data every month. Data was collected over 4 warmest months of the year. Tankful data allowed one to check for consistency of the data. One could also look at the total miles and total gallons used.
And let me add, that I really set out to prove there wouldn't be a difference, as that is what I firmly believed at the time. But in the end, I had to admit to myself there was a significant difference. Granted, it was small, but it was there.
Keep in mind that the Sequence VIB test must detect a minimum of difference of 1.8% after 16 hours aging, and
1.5% after 96 hours aging, between a GF-4 5w30 and a 5w30 test oil. The oils I collected data on went from 10 cSt to 12 cSt, and HTHS of 3.0 to 3.5, so the difference is quite likely much greater than the Sequence VIB test.
Now, I'll admit, the above may be valid only for the particular vehicle and test conditions. But it does demonstrate that a difference can be found.
Maybe once I'm done with filter testing, I'll try an instrumented approach.
Actually I using HDEO 10w30 in an old Honda and it gets the same gas mileage as 0w30 Mobil 1.
The 0w vs 10w difference will really show up if you do a thousand 5 mile trips, starting cold each time, rather than 10 trips of 500 miles.
If I had to choose between Mobil 1 and XD3 0w30, and they both cost the same, I'd pick the thinner one for my car. But around here, the Mobil is twice as expensive, even though they're both made by the same company.
If I had to choose between Mobil 1 and XD3 0w30, and they both cost the same, I'd pick the thinner one for my car. But around here, the Mobil is twice as expensive, even though they're both made by the same company.
"I hadn't considered that the XD-3 could be harmful to the cat and 02 sensors...maybe a change to Redline is in my future?"
Again going from the frying pan into the fire. Redline is not ILSAC qualified either, and could contain high amounts of ZDDP which is harmful to the cat. If you want to maximize your gas mileage and minimize the damage to the cat, then you want a SM Sunburst rated oil. It will have the sunburst log on the bottle. It means it has been certified to the latest ILSAC standards which were developed by automakers to maximize the life of the cat, fuel mileage, and minimize wear.
Again going from the frying pan into the fire. Redline is not ILSAC qualified either, and could contain high amounts of ZDDP which is harmful to the cat. If you want to maximize your gas mileage and minimize the damage to the cat, then you want a SM Sunburst rated oil. It will have the sunburst log on the bottle. It means it has been certified to the latest ILSAC standards which were developed by automakers to maximize the life of the cat, fuel mileage, and minimize wear.
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Are we all talking about Lubrizol's paper presented to the ASE on Catalitic converter Poisning? If so I do not see were this is a huge issue? THe bigest supporter of this has traditionaly been GM. It is also no suprise that they had the highest rate of cat. failures under warranty. Everyone in the industry knew that their failure rate was due to price point design and they were looking for a scape goat. Latter Chryler joined the band wagon.I Toyota might also have reluctantly joined in the band wagon but I suspect that was political. No one in my family has ever pluged up a catalytic converter and I do not know anyone that has. I have seen customer cars in the shop and from friends that still own shops with pluged up converters though. These same cars normaly were oil burners and also had higher then normal amounts of sludge in them. Useing highly volitile oils and constanly topping off with that same oil is far worse then the amounts of additives in a non-volitile oil. If HDEO were loseing so much ZDDP through the exhaust why do we see so much still in the oil after an OCI and UOA? Keeping wear to a minimum,useing non-volitile oils and keeping your seals happy will do more to prevent cat death then reduceing additives in oils.
To listen to some tell it you would think that converters are just plugging up left and right. It is simply not the case.
To listen to some tell it you would think that converters are just plugging up left and right. It is simply not the case.
I think it is more than just a paper. I gather that ILSAC has been working on the GF-4 standard since about 2001. One of the main changes in it is to limit phosphorus to 0.08%, and it was 0.11% under GF-3. The cat poisoning is the only reason. I don't think you have to plug up the cat to make it in effective. It can just poison out. You only catch that if you get emission tested. It is probable that GF-5 will require even less phosphorus.
For similar reasons sulfur is also being restricted in oil.
For similar reasons sulfur is also being restricted in oil.
Some of the volatile components of ZDDP make it to the Cat whether you use any oil or not.
Some reading on Cat Poisoning:
http://repairnet.aircare.ca/documentation/newsletterpdfs/2005-1.pdf
http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/isbn9514269543.pdf
http://www.savantgroup.com/ASTMSym04-PEI.pdf
http://www.swri.org/dasl/n-tcd/dasl_n-tcdb4.pdf
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/32842.pdf
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/ttoday/Winter04/Focas.htm
They don't have to plug up to loose a significant portion of their effectivness.
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