Compared to III and IVs, what is the typical oil change interval for an ester base stock? As we know, PAO based oils can go a long time between changes. What about the esters? When I look at Motul's 300v product, it clearly says "this is not an extended change oil". Is that just due to their additive pack or is it more related to ester base stock?
Group V and change intervals?
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It's sort of an impossible question to answer. Oil change intervals are determined by multiple factors - engine type, driving conditions, sump capacity and oil type.
When evaluating oil performance, the entire formulation needs to be looked at, not just base oil.
When evaluating oil performance, the entire formulation needs to be looked at, not just base oil.
good question. i wish I had an answer.
supposedly, esters are hygroscopic, that would limit OCI indeed.
supposedly, esters are hygroscopic, that would limit OCI indeed.
that's why I didn't ask for the exact number of miles or time, but just the amount of time or miles relative to a group IV. So, in general, all other things the same, let's assume "middle of the road" driving conditions, would ester based be longer, shorter or same as a PAO? I'm guessing (only guessing though)it would be shorter...due to hygroscopic nature of esters?
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JHZR2
Staff member
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
Well Said.
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
Well Said.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
I am rather convinced of the benefit, beyond just low-temp flow, provided by group V content in base stocks. The polar nature of the molecules being just one reason. What I'm trying to determine is if there is any evidence or literature that indicates a reduced OCI for V vs IV, all other things equal. I've read plenty of literature that indicates that IIIs break down far faster than do IVs. For example, Amsoil's own literature states that their "XL" (group III as far as I'm aware) oil is a 5,000 mile oil; while their "signature" line (group IV so far as I'm aware) they claim 25,0000 miles. Some of that is marketing in my opinion....but surly not all.
So.....OCI for Ester vs PAO, all other things equal?
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
I am rather convinced of the benefit, beyond just low-temp flow, provided by group V content in base stocks. The polar nature of the molecules being just one reason. What I'm trying to determine is if there is any evidence or literature that indicates a reduced OCI for V vs IV, all other things equal. I've read plenty of literature that indicates that IIIs break down far faster than do IVs. For example, Amsoil's own literature states that their "XL" (group III as far as I'm aware) oil is a 5,000 mile oil; while their "signature" line (group IV so far as I'm aware) they claim 25,0000 miles. Some of that is marketing in my opinion....but surly not all.
So.....OCI for Ester vs PAO, all other things equal?
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
Well Said.
What exactly did he say?
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
TBN retention and fuel/moisture dilution will be as telling as anything else, and are often another reason why the more expensive fluids offer poor value proposition as majority content in oils. Add packs and a balanced lube design is more important. And good grp III oils will have similar oxidation performance as higher group lubes, so it is best to ensure that the only benefit, flow at ultra-low temperatures, is actually beneficial. If at your typical ambient temperatures, the viscosity is similar, then what's the point?
Well Said.
What exactly did he say?
The thing is most pure ester oils are racing oils that are not optimized for long OCI, so it will be difficult to get a reasonable answer here.
Now, we know (or suspect) that some oils do contain esters as additives. Castrol Magnatec is an example. It is BMW Longlife-01 certified, so reasonably long OCI is probably possible, but UOA with TBN is probably needed.
Now, we know (or suspect) that some oils do contain esters as additives. Castrol Magnatec is an example. It is BMW Longlife-01 certified, so reasonably long OCI is probably possible, but UOA with TBN is probably needed.
There are several used oil analysis of G-Oil here, and it is clearly not suited to long drains, based upon its rapid TBN depletion as well as shearing.
Now, would a suitable Red Line oil show the same limitations?
There are a number of Red Line used oil analysis in the used oil analysis forum.
Red Line does not seem to suffer any significant shear, but TBN retention still seems weaker than what the best PAOs or even Grp IIIs offer.
There were a couple of runs of Red Line oils out to 14-15K, and TBN was utterly done in both cases.
Still, I don't know that this is a basestock issue as much as it is an additive pack and intended use issue.
Sorry I've done nothing to answer your question, but based upon what I've seen here among ester basestock oils, G-Oil is a 5K oil and Red Line is a 10K oil.
Now, would a suitable Red Line oil show the same limitations?
There are a number of Red Line used oil analysis in the used oil analysis forum.
Red Line does not seem to suffer any significant shear, but TBN retention still seems weaker than what the best PAOs or even Grp IIIs offer.
There were a couple of runs of Red Line oils out to 14-15K, and TBN was utterly done in both cases.
Still, I don't know that this is a basestock issue as much as it is an additive pack and intended use issue.
Sorry I've done nothing to answer your question, but based upon what I've seen here among ester basestock oils, G-Oil is a 5K oil and Red Line is a 10K oil.
I am not sure of it's TBN retention, but Motul's 300V 0W-xx oils start with a very high TBN.
So I guess a high starting TBN (or even good-great TBN retention) does not a long-drain oil make??
So I guess a high starting TBN (or even good-great TBN retention) does not a long-drain oil make??
I personally know 3 people who regularly run Redline oil out to 10,000 miles with no issues.Myself I ran redline 0w30 an entire year,again,no issues.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I personally know 3 people who regularly run Redline oil out to 10,000 miles with no issues.Myself I ran redline 0w30 an entire year,again,no issues.
Did these three people UOA these 10K runs?
Did you after running the oil for a year?
Without knowing TBN as well as viscosity after a run, you have little with which to judge whether the oil held up well or not.
I also posted that Red Line is a 10K oil, so I guess you're agreeing with me?
I personally know 3 people who regularly run Redline oil out to 10,000 miles with no issues.Myself I ran redline 0w30 an entire year,again,no issues.
Did these three people UOA these 10K runs?
Did you after running the oil for a year?
Without knowing TBN as well as viscosity after a run, you have little with which to judge whether the oil held up well or not.
I also posted that Red Line is a 10K oil, so I guess you're agreeing with me?
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I personally know 3 people who regularly run Redline oil out to 10,000 miles with no issues.Myself I ran redline 0w30 an entire year,again,no issues.
Did these three people UOA these 10K runs?
Did you after running the oil for a year?
Without knowing TBN as well as viscosity after a run, you have little with which to judge whether the oil held up well or not.
I also posted that Red Line is a 10K oil, so I guess you're agreeing with me?
Nope,these owners that I'm referring to including myself,dont bother with used oil analysis.You wanna hold that against me,so be it.All vehicles within question do not use oil,do not use coolant and are perfectly fine mechanically.
dailydriver another user on this forum,also runs redline out 10,000 miles
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...652#Post2654652
Terry Dyson has many times stated that it was safe to take Red Line down to 1.0 or less TBN,regardless most people these days dont bother with used oil analysis or haven't even heard of them.You wanna know what an oil is doing to the clearances inside a motor,you'll have to tear it down,period.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I personally know 3 people who regularly run Redline oil out to 10,000 miles with no issues.Myself I ran redline 0w30 an entire year,again,no issues.
Did these three people UOA these 10K runs?
Did you after running the oil for a year?
Without knowing TBN as well as viscosity after a run, you have little with which to judge whether the oil held up well or not.
I also posted that Red Line is a 10K oil, so I guess you're agreeing with me?
Nope,these owners that I'm referring to including myself,dont bother with used oil analysis.You wanna hold that against me,so be it.All vehicles within question do not use oil,do not use coolant and are perfectly fine mechanically.
dailydriver another user on this forum,also runs redline out 10,000 miles
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...652#Post2654652
Terry Dyson has many times stated that it was safe to take Red Line down to 1.0 or less TBN,regardless most people these days dont bother with used oil analysis or haven't even heard of them.You wanna know what an oil is doing to the clearances inside a motor,you'll have to tear it down,period.
I like Redline and it has it's purpose, but long drains is not one of them. Sorry. As far as Terry goes, he is mistaken on a lot of things and has been wrong on many things.
He was the guy that was saying M1 had poor solvency, maybe because George Morrison said M1 no longer used esters (not the case). Failed to realize Mobil used AN's/Esters and has excellent solvency.
Ironically enough, the oil he ended up praising (RLI) used Mobil 1 in a TEOST test comparison and M1 showed superior results. (Another reason Honda chose it for the RDX).
He was the guy that was saying M1 had poor solvency, maybe because George Morrison said M1 no longer used esters (not the case). Failed to realize Mobil used AN's/Esters and has excellent solvency.
Ironically enough, the oil he ended up praising (RLI) used Mobil 1 in a TEOST test comparison and M1 showed superior results. (Another reason Honda chose it for the RDX).
Tom NJ
$100 Site Donor 2026
There are esters and there are esters - many different types ranging from less stable than mineral oils (vegetable oils) to much more stable than PAO (POEs). As others have said, there are many factors besides the base oil that dictate oil life, but all else being equal, POEs should outlast PAO, but it's academic since there are no 100% POE based street oils formulated for long OCIs. POEs need to be balanced with PAO or Group III for seal compatibility.
Most synthetic esters only solubilize about 0.2% of water and it is not an issue in engine oils.
Tom NJ
Most synthetic esters only solubilize about 0.2% of water and it is not an issue in engine oils.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: buster
I like Redline and it has it's purpose, but long drains is not one of them. Sorry. As far as Terry goes, he is mistaken on a lot of things and has been wrong on many things.
He was the guy that was saying M1 had poor solvency, maybe because George Morrison said M1 no longer used esters (not the case). Failed to realize Mobil used AN's/Esters and has excellent solvency.
Ironically enough, the oil he ended up praising (RLI) used Mobil 1 in a TEOST test comparison and M1 showed superior results. (Another reason Honda chose it for the RDX).
Regardless of your opinion,long drains on Redline have been done with no ill effects.Was it made for it?Nope. Real world useage is where it's at,not on paper,sorry.
I like Redline and it has it's purpose, but long drains is not one of them. Sorry. As far as Terry goes, he is mistaken on a lot of things and has been wrong on many things.
He was the guy that was saying M1 had poor solvency, maybe because George Morrison said M1 no longer used esters (not the case). Failed to realize Mobil used AN's/Esters and has excellent solvency.
Ironically enough, the oil he ended up praising (RLI) used Mobil 1 in a TEOST test comparison and M1 showed superior results. (Another reason Honda chose it for the RDX).
Regardless of your opinion,long drains on Redline have been done with no ill effects.Was it made for it?Nope. Real world useage is where it's at,not on paper,sorry.
I'm glad it worked out for you. In "some" instances, RL has shown some good results in longer drain intervals, but overall has been below average. I'm going by used oil analysis here.
In terms of shear stability and handling extremely high temperatures, RL is at the top.
In terms of shear stability and handling extremely high temperatures, RL is at the top.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
There are esters and there are esters - many different types ranging from less stable than mineral oils (vegetable oils) to much more stable than PAO (POEs). As others have said, there are many factors besides the base oil that dictate oil life, but all else being equal, POEs should outlast PAO, but it's academic since there are no 100% POE based street oils formulated for long OCIs. POEs need to be balanced with PAO or Group III for seal compatibility.
Most synthetic esters only solubilize about 0.2% of water and it is not an issue in engine oils.
Tom NJ
Well said, as usual.
There are many many esters.
There are esters and there are esters - many different types ranging from less stable than mineral oils (vegetable oils) to much more stable than PAO (POEs). As others have said, there are many factors besides the base oil that dictate oil life, but all else being equal, POEs should outlast PAO, but it's academic since there are no 100% POE based street oils formulated for long OCIs. POEs need to be balanced with PAO or Group III for seal compatibility.
Most synthetic esters only solubilize about 0.2% of water and it is not an issue in engine oils.
Tom NJ
Well said, as usual.
There are many many esters.
Well, after spending too much time reviewing UAOs for Motul and RL....it seems (to me anyway) that extended OCIs for group Vs probably ain't ideal (as others have stated). I'm seeming Motul 300v hold up pretty well in terms of TBN for 5k-7k miles and beyond. Maybe I'll go with Motul for 7k mile oci....or move back to Amsoil Signature (group IV) or even M1 for 10K. Love all the moly in RL....but not sure the TBN holds up for long.
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