Grid-scale battery fire in upstate New York

I find it interesting that we don’t just connect the whole US grid together and help use that to help us out as peak usage times vary across the country based on time zone, weather, etc.

I know it’s a super complex system and interconnecting it is a logistical nightmare but anything is possible.
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to try and get like 14GW from the West cost to the East? Look at power prices in Europe to get an idea as to how much having massive interconnection costs, and then consider that you can fit Germany inside just Ontario 3x.
 
The growth of batteries storing California solar power is huge and will probably double again this year. Not sure who pays for it. Haha.

E9846150-0F3F-4899-9044-E8B824C4B193.webp
 
The growth of batteries storing California solar power is huge and will probably double again this year. Not sure who pays for it. Haha.

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Well, if you've seen the rates in California, that'll give you a pretty good idea of who pays for it. They are something like 4x higher than Ontario.
 
This is at least the 7th grid-scale battery fire I am aware of.

I don't believe a pumped storage facility has ever caught fire, despite many of them being over 50 years old (Beck PGS is 66).

Well, let's be fair and admit that we've had quite a few catastrophic oil spills in my lifetime and I am well aware of an Exxon (prior to merger) refinery that had a major fire. Don't believe me? Watch the "Remember Charlie" safety training film, terrifying!
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Well, let's be fair and admit that we've had quite a few catastrophic oil spills in my lifetime and I am well aware of an Exxon (prior to merger) refinery that had a major fire. Don't believe me? Watch the "Remember Charlie" safety training film, terrifying!
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Two points:
1. How many times have you seen oil platforms and refineries referred to as "enabling renewables" to "reduce emissions"?
2. How many refineries and drilling platforms are operating in comparison to grid-scale batteries?

This would be far less significant if there were thousands or even hundreds of grid scale batteries, but there aren't, there are a handful and 7 of them have caught fire. That's alarming.

Racoon Mountain has operated safely for 45 years.
Sir Adam Beck PGS has operated safely for 66 years.

There is no requirement for Lithium-based batteries to be used for grid storage, and, given its track record, we should not be doing it when cleaner and longer lived alternatives are available. Space is not a premium for grid batteries, using alternative chemistries that don't self-immolate should be common sense given that fact.
 
Need to define tangible good benefits.

Hybrid cars, even with a more complex powertrain, yield far better MPGs in many cases.

Much of this is kind of like the pallet expander that my 10yo needed to have. Turn it once in the am, once in the pm. It hurts when turned. It’s slow. It sucks. It’s cumbersome. But imagine the outcome when done.

Many things will flop on the way. Fortunes made and lost, etc.

Some of it will be for the better when controlled, managed, and implemented consistently. When industry brings the cost down. Other stuff is a pipe dream and will always be.
Good points for sure. We will no doubt get there one day. I was more referring to the production of EV's where you see the environmental impact of mining for the metals needed for batteries and how much damage that does along with all the fossil fuel used to do it. It's just moving pollution from one end to the other. I see environmental issues with wind mills, solar and such as well. Just things we need to work thru I guess and make better over time to your point - and I agree. The one other thing that always gets me is that we don't have a plan to get off of oil. We have plans to produce energy without oil. The problem is nearly everything we touch is made from oil....plastics etc. We can run out of oil and still not be able to be able to make energy with these alternatives because they rely on parts that are made from oil..... I am sure my logic is flawed so be easy on me lol
 
Two points:
1. How many times have you seen oil platforms and refineries referred to as "enabling renewables" to "reduce emissions"?
2. How many refineries and drilling platforms are operating in comparison to grid-scale batteries?

This would be far less significant if there were thousands or even hundreds of grid scale batteries, but there aren't, there are a handful and 7 of them have caught fire. That's alarming.

Racoon Mountain has operated safely for 45 years.
Sir Adam Beck PGS has operated safely for 66 years.

There is no requirement for Lithium-based batteries to be used for grid storage, and, given its track record, we should not be doing it when cleaner and longer lived alternatives are available. Space is not a premium for grid batteries, using alternative chemistries that don't self-immolate should be common sense given that fact.
Good points. We all remember batteries exploding in cell phones etc.
 
Two points:
1. How many times have you seen oil platforms and refineries referred to as "enabling renewables" to "reduce emissions"?
2. How many refineries and drilling platforms are operating in comparison to grid-scale batteries?

This would be far less significant if there were thousands or even hundreds of grid scale batteries, but there aren't, there are a handful and 7 of them have caught fire. That's alarming.

Racoon Mountain has operated safely for 45 years.
Sir Adam Beck PGS has operated safely for 66 years.

There is no requirement for Lithium-based batteries to be used for grid storage, and, given its track record, we should not be doing it when cleaner and longer lived alternatives are available. Space is not a premium for grid batteries, using alternative chemistries that don't self-immolate should be common sense given that fact.

One point, if we examine the accident rate in the oil & gas industry vs. Grid energy storage and the trillion$ used to clean the accidents in the former, pretty sure the latter comes off okay...
 
I was looking at Ni-H2 battery technology today, mainly because a variant is shipped with the 2023 Toyota Crown Platinum. Fast discharge, slow charge, not very sensitive to temperature, 1/2 as energy dense as Li-ion, relatively safe, 35,000 cycles to 85% capacity. Used on satellites with a 15 year min lifetime.
Disadvantages: cost and it self-discharges 10% a day.

Toyota’s is a different design, they say.

Separately, there’s a startup company claiming to have brought the cost to parity with Li-ion; they’re aiming for the grid-scale market.
 
I was looking at Ni-H2 battery technology today, mainly because a variant is shipped with the 2023 Toyota Crown Platinum. Fast discharge, slow charge, not very sensitive to temperature, 1/2 as energy dense as Li-ion, relatively safe, 35,000 cycles to 85% capacity. Used on satellites with a 15 year min lifetime.
Disadvantages: cost and it self-discharges 10% a day.

Toyota’s is a different design, they say.

Separately, there’s a startup company claiming to have brought the cost to parity with Li-ion; they’re aiming for the grid-scale market.
Ni-hydrogen, not NiMH? Or something else? If they’re using traditional io batteries it’s a step backwards though obviously there can be some benefits related to safety. If actual nickel hydrogen then they’re just trading one issue for another since then there’s a hydrogen pressure tank to use. And hydrogen has its own issues and baggage.

I think I’d rather see LTO.
 
I find it interesting that we don’t just connect the whole US grid together and help use that to help us out as peak usage times vary across the country based on time zone, weather, etc.

I know it’s a super complex system and interconnecting it is a logistical nightmare but anything is possible.
For the most part, North America is interconnected. NERC presided over northern Baja, Mexico, Continental USA & Canada. There are 3 main interconnections: Western, Eastern & ERCOT (think they’re called TRE now). WECC is the western interconnection that spans from, roughly, the Rockies west. That includes northern Baja as well as BC & Alberta.


Dynamic reactive resources need to be installed close to load centers since VAR’s don’t travel well.

I won’t go off on a long post here as it’s my first post & I’m on my phone & out of town.

Welcome everyone (I’ll do this properly shortly). Been a lurker for over a decade. Have about 22-23yrs of utility experience from power plant construction, power plant operations, transmission system operations & generation scheduling.

Great forum & good thread.
 
For the most part, North America is interconnected. NERC presided over northern Baja, Mexico, Continental USA & Canada. There are 3 main interconnections: Western, Eastern & ERCOT (think they’re called TRE now). WECC is the western interconnection that spans from, roughly, the Rockies west. That includes northern Baja as well as BC & Alberta.


Dynamic reactive resources need to be installed close to load centers since VAR’s don’t travel well.

I won’t go off on a long post here as it’s my first post & I’m on my phone & out of town.

Welcome everyone (I’ll do this properly shortly). Been a lurker for over a decade. Have about 22-23yrs of utility experience from power plant construction, power plant operations, transmission system operations & generation scheduling.

Great forum & good thread.
I have been trying to understand how the grid works for a while. I understand electronics and electricity in general pretty well. The more I read about the grid the more I realize I don't know. I would welcome more real insight.
 
I have been trying to understand how the grid works for a while. I understand electronics and electricity in general pretty well. The more I read about the grid the more I realize I don't know. I would welcome more real insight.
I’m out of town until Tuesday helping my in-laws move so unfortunately most of my replies will be brief (for me at least).

If you already have a grasp on the power triangle (total/reactive/real power) and basic 3 phase ac, what would you like to know? Really, if someone has genuine interest in learning about power systems, just download the EPRI Power System Tutorial for free online in pdf format. It’s pretty extensive as far as publicly available information.

Maybe when I get back to a computer I’ll make a thread about power systems.

As a side note, the CA utility battery system mentioned earlier in the thread by @OVERKILL is in Moss Landing. I was involved with writing & processing switching orders for that facility during the 115kV switchyard update about 6ish years ago. Yes, the batteries have caught fire a few times. No, I’m not a supporter of what is being forced onto the grid at this time.
 
Some more details:

1. The Jefferson battery (this thread) was manufactured by GE

2. This is the Orange County fire, it happened almost exactly a month ago:
https://hudsonvalley.news12.com/fir...ty-continues-to-burn-off-combustible-material

Those cells were manufactured by Powin.

3. This is the Suffolk County (East Hampton) fire, it happened almost exactly two months ago (May 31st):
https://www.27east.com/east-hampton...ast-hampton-energy-storage-batteries-2165549/

This was a NextEra battery project.
 
One point, if we examine the accident rate in the oil & gas industry vs. Grid energy storage and the trillion$ used to clean the accidents in the former, pretty sure the latter comes off okay...


I strongly suggest you learn and read up on what lithium and its isotopes are used in and for….

It’s extremely interesting.

Having said that… I’m not a fan of it… For numerous reasons.

And try to charge your lithium ion battery when it colder than -10C…

Go to Cadex Battery University webpage. You will learn a whole lot there too.

Don’t listen to stupid news sources…. Or manufacturers… Go to a direct source .

You are very smart and it will be well worth your time.
 
Some more details:

1. The Jefferson battery (this thread) was manufactured by GE

2. This is the Orange County fire, it happened almost exactly a month ago:
https://hudsonvalley.news12.com/fir...ty-continues-to-burn-off-combustible-material

Those cells were manufactured by Powin.

3. This is the Suffolk County (East Hampton) fire, it happened almost exactly two months ago (May 31st):
https://www.27east.com/east-hampton...ast-hampton-energy-storage-batteries-2165549/

This was a NextEra battery project.
Wait… GE doesn’t make Li-ion. They had been trying to commercialize night temperature Na batteries and even built a line in Schenectady…. If its those that’s a vastly different situation, they are hot enough to melt salt…
 
Wait… GE doesn’t make Li-ion. They had been trying to commercialize night temperature Na batteries and even built a line in Schenectady…. If its those that’s a vastly different situation, they are hot enough to melt salt…
https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/07/28/convergent-offers-words-apology-solar-farm-fire-continues-burn/

In a statement, Convergent Energy and Power said the battery storage system it operates near Chaumont was manufactured by General Electric and that it stores electricity from the adjacent solar panels.

I'll see if I can find some details on the install, give me a few.
 
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