Good substitute for M1 0W-30 ???

[FixedWing]

I've become quite fond of running Mobil One in my cars. Mostly I have used 0W-40 but recently decided (thanx in part to what I have read on this forum) to run 0W-30 in my Audi B5 S4 over the Connecticut winter months.

Problem is, 0W-30 is a lot harder to find than 0W-40 is.

So I'm wondering if I should keep looking (probably means a trip to the local distributor) or whether a good substitute for Mobil One could be had in this weight.

Any recommendations???

Stephen

 

[rugerman1]

Mobil 1 5w30

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by rugerman1:
Mobil 1 5w30

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No, I particularly want the "0W" rating for the winter. I'd rather stick with 0W-40 than accept a higher W rated oil.

Stephen

 

[rugerman1]

Do a freezer test of Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w-40.Put 1/8" of oil in some dixie cups and see which one flows faster.At 0°F(my freezer temperature), Mobil 1 5w30 flows faster than 0w-30 GC.At -50°F

The coldest start we'll see in Pittsburgh is about 0°F.That's where I base my decisions.

[ November 26, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by rugerman1:
Do a freezer test of Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w-40.Put 1/8" of oil in some dixie cups and see which one flows faster.At 0°F(my freezer temperature), Mobil 1 5w30 flows faster than 0w-30 GC.At -50°F

The coldest start we'll see in Pittsburgh is about 0°F.That's where I base my decisions.

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Mobil claims a pour point of -45 ºC for 5w30 and -54 ºC for 0W-30 so there is a not-insignificant difference in cold performance between the two.

I may consider blending 0W-20 and 0W-40.

But what I was really wondering is if there might be competing products at the 0W-30 weight that others might recommend??

Stephen

 

[pitzel]

If you were in Canada, I'd say synthetic 0W-30 Esso/ExxonMobil XD-3. Pretty much identical specs to GC, and every indication sofar shows its just as good as GC wear-wise.

 

[427Z06]

If you "just gotsta' have" 0w30 you can have it shipped from here: M1R0w30. But as rugerman1 says, the M1 5w30 will probably serve just as well. I don't think you have that many days way below 0F in Connecticut.

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
If you "just gotsta' have" 0w30 you can have it shipped from here: M1R0w30. But as rugerman1 says, the M1 5w30 will probably serve just as well. I don't think you have that many days way below 0F in Connecticut.

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Can you give me one good reason not to use a 0W oil in Connecticut?? I can't think of a one.

The K03 turbos on the early Audi B5 S4's have an issue with a too-small oil supply hole. In the winter months especially, it is essential to get sufficient oil to them on start-up. I definitely do not want a 5W oil even though in most applications it might be adequate.

I guess I will mix 60% 0W-20 and 40% 0W-40. That should give me exactly what I want.

Stephen

[ November 26, 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: FixedWing ]

 

[427Z06]

When I use published values and a blended oil calculator for 60% 0w20 and 40% 0w40 I come up with these values:

100C 10.4
40C 55.1
0C 393.7
VI 181

For M1 5w30 the published values are:

100C 10
40C 56
0C 445.5
VI 167

For M1 0w30 the published values are:

100C 10.3
40C 56
0C 419.1
VI 175


However, I'm not sure what effect the VIIs or PPDs would have, if any.

And remember, the viscosity at 0C is an extrapolation, and although I feel comfortable going down to 0C with a PAO full syn, I'm not sure how valid it is to go much lower than that.

As far as the 0w and 5w ratings, remember that those are related to viscosities at -40C/-35C and -35C/-30C respectively.

I'm not totally opposed to mixing M1 in various grades as Mobil has said to mix away everytime I and others asked, but I wish the best for you and hopefully this will allow you to make an informed decision.

Just had another brain cell pop so here's another thought, mix up your blend and take a sample of 5w30 and perform the freezer experiment rugerman1 suggests. Let us know what you find out.

Good luck.

[ November 26, 2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
As far as the 0w and 5w ratings, remember that those are related to viscosities at -40C/-35C and -35C/-30C respectively.

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I didn't understand this paragraph.

The pore point for 0W-20 is -57ºC, for 0W-30 is -54ºC, for 0W-40 is -54ºC and for 5w30 is -45ºC. So I would expect the pore point of a combination of 0W-20 and 0W-40 to be somewhere between -57ºC and -54ºC. Is that a reasonable assumption??

Stephen

 

[John_E]

I admittedly do not have to contend with severe heat or cold, but I use Mobil 1 0W-40 because that is the ONLY weight of Mobil 1 which meets VW/Audi specification 502.00. My reading of the infamous 1.8T engine sludge notice is that the use of any other weight of Mobil 1 jeopardizes my powertrain warranty.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by FixedWing:

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
As far as the 0w and 5w ratings, remember that those are related to viscosities at -40C/-35C and -35C/-30C respectively.

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I didn't understand this paragraph.

The pore point for 0W-20 is -57ºC, for 0W-30 is -54ºC, for 0W-40 is -54ºC and for 5w30 is -45ºC. So I would expect the pore point of a combination of 0W-20 and 0W-40 to be somewhere between -57ºC and -54ºC. Is that a reasonable assumption??

Stephen

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Pour points aren't the best indicators of cold weather performance. Pumping and cranking viscosities are a better indicator and is in fact where the 0w, 5w, 10w, etc, designations come from. See: http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/viscosity.htm#SAE

Pumping viscosity is now measured at a lower temperature than the cranking viscoity to ensure if the engine cranks over, the oil isn't to viscous to be sucked up the pickup tube and be pumped to the engine. Also the oil can't yield to shear stress at the pumping viscosity temperature. Rough translation, oil doesn't gel up at that temperature.

Hope that helps.

 

[Audi Junkie]

quote:

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early Audi B5 S4's have an issue with a too-small oil supply

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...yes, but on the other end, these engines tend to "go blue" (smoke) or basicly burn-out from lightweight oil like my neighbours AWE S4 did on Mobil 1 5w30. He needed to add oil constantly.

Normally, I'd substitue Saab Synth 0w-30 (Euro Mobil 1 Polar) for M1 0w-30 but I think that is too thin for you. Don't let the cold oil line issue distract from the fact this engine needs a 40 weight oil. You can get insulated line if desired. I have a tweaked AFC 2.8 30v (same n/a engine) and it is not right on
Mobil 1 0w-40, 5w-40
Syntec 0w-30, 5w-50

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
...yes, but on the other end, these engines tend to "go blue" (smoke) or basicly burn-out from lightweight oil like my neighbours AWE S4 did on Mobil 1 5w30. He needed to add oil constantly.

Normally, I'd substitue Saab Synth 0w-30 (Euro Mobil 1 Polar) for M1 0w-30 but I think that is too thin for you. Don't let the cold oil line issue distract from the fact this engine needs a 40 weight oil. You can get insulated line if desired. I have a tweaked AFC 2.8 30v (same n/a engine) and it is not right on strong>

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Audi calls for 5W-40 or 5w30 in the B5 S4. Audi dealers do not use a synthetic. Most people on the Audiworld B5 S4 forum use either Mobil One 0W-40 or 0W-30. None have reported the problems you mention with the B5 S4 engine. The engine itself is just about bullet-proof.

Generally, I prefer 0W-40. I use it in a Porsche and Volvo I have in Europe where they see hard use (track use on the Porsche). I've used 0W-40 in my Audi until now (including last winter). I will use 0W-30 only during the winter months and will change it out in the spring.

I do think most people have a fixation with thicker oils. Even for myself, it has taken time for me to get away from the "thicker is better" thinking. I suspect the Audi would be fine on a SAE 20 wt. oil too (not that I'm about to find out). So I do feel pretty comfortable running a 30 wt. oil in the winter months. I also think it makes sense.

Stephen

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
Hope that helps.

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It does. Now I understand exactly what you meant.

Thank you.

Stephen

 

[KW]

I know that you are looking for a 0W30, but the M1 0W40 it a thin 40wt and thins to a high 30 after the first few thousand miles.

 

[FixedWing]

quote:

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Originally posted by KW:
I know that you are looking for a 0W30, but the M1 0W40 it a thin 40wt and thins to a high 30 after the first few thousand miles.

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Yes, I saw that. Not sure it is a good thing either. I have seen this happen in oil samples I've taken of 0W-40 on my Porsche 996 Turbo and Audi B5 S4. I think I'd rather have an oil that stayed in grade to one that sheared down to grade. It is one of the reasons I don't leave the 0W-40 in for long change intervals.

Here is the recent thread that started me thinking about switching from 0W-40 down to 0W-30 for the winter:

M1 Ow30 and 0w40 which one?

Makes sense to me!

Stephen

 

[Dr. T]

Stephen, does M-1 even come in a 0-30 in Europe? And I'd probably guess that it's got an A3 rating. The US one does not...so to hear stories like Audie Junkie's in not out the the ordinary. In other words, M-1 0/5/10-30's sold in the US do NOT qualify for any BMW, M-B, or Porsche specs.

 

[Audi Junkie]

American 30 weight synths tend to be much thinner than their Euro counterparts. A3/VW 502 SynPower 5w30 is a good example. In Europe it has at least a 3.5 HT/HS rating, in USA it has a 2.9. That S4 my neighbour had was a mess after the Mobil 1 5w30. It burned oil so bad it also burned your eyes.

Now he smiles and smiles when I give him his GC shipments for his R32.

All I can say is look at the +100c centi-stroke of the oil you use and then pull a UOA after winter. I suspect a 10cSt oil will have higher wear metals than a 14cSt oil. I can't really say Audi intended 10cSt oil for this car in any circumstances, you seem committed. Beware.

 

[haley10]

I am humbly submitting that you are making mountains out of mole hills on the cold crank issue in Connecticut.

GC 0W-30 from Autozone or M1 0W-40 will work just fine.

I don't think it's an issue at all. In fact it is such a small issue, I would submit that a 0W-40 or 5-40 would even let the engine warm up faster and hence might be a benefit.

Seriously, I think youd'd be fine with the M1 0W-40 all year long.