Good Golly Ms Moly

[TooSlick]

I think it's time we discuss the real vs imagined merits of moly in an engine oil application....

According to the "conventional wisdom" on this site, it's the biggest news to happen to oil since Jed Clampett capped off that poorly aimed round some thirty years back. If you look at the baseline properties of Redline Oil, they use this approx mix of anti-wear additives:

Phosphorus - 1260 ppm
Zinc - 1330 ppm
Moly - 600 ppm

So it would seem that Redline Oils should show almost NO wear, since you have both the barrier lube and the conventional ZDDP in very robust amounts. Yet, oil analysis shows that the Mobil 1 supersyn outperforms Redline in most cases, even though it only uses the following add pack:

P - 850 ppm
Z - 900 ppm
Moly - 80 ppm

Both these oils are PAO/Ester based formulations that use high quality basestocks, so I don't see a big difference there.

So where is the real benefit of moly in a street application under controlled conditions???? I've read SAE papers that reference the use of moly as a friction modifier, but never one that showed a significant reduction in wear rates.

[ November 19, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Hmm, I must have missed something. Where does Mobil1 outperform Red Line?

 

[dragboat]

Although this has been talked about thoroughly in another thread it seems it needs discussed yet again?

I wonder how long it will be until Amsoil uses some kind of Moly in their formulations ?

Or will they be left in the dust?

 

[Pablo]

quote:

---

I wonder how long it will be until Amsoil uses some kind of Moly in their formulations ?

---

I am often asking myself this question. It used to be quite the rumor that this was "the secret"...easily squelched by analysis.

 

[TooSlick]

Dragboat,

I understand the use of moly in 0w-20 and 5w-20 formulations to prevent wear under high loads. It is the use of moly in the heavier grades that I honestly wonder about? I'm not trying to slam Redline or Mobil, but they do take different approaches to this.

Redline does seem to show higher bearing wear, compared to Mobil 1 in some of the engines I've seen and I suspect it might be due to accelerated oxidation/corrosion from all the moly they use. I have seen NO issues with the small amount of moly that Mobil and Schaeffers uses, in fact the Schaeffers wear rates are very good and the Supersyn performs fine also.

 

[satterfi]

You will never get conclusive results from this forum.

Proper data collection is too expensive for people like us.

I’m sure most of you can understand that in the uncontrolled environment that data is presented on this forum, it doesn’t mean squat.

 

[vettenuts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:

Redline does seem to show higher bearing wear, compared to Mobil 1 in some of the engines I've seen and I suspect it might be due to accelerated oxidation/corrosion from all the moly they use.

---

Were these the results contaminated with coolant? Where are these results, I would be interested in reading them?

 

[TooSlick]

Vettnuts,

I am specifically referring to the used oil analysis results reported by "Fulton 1" in his pickup, where Redline showed significantly higher levels of lead and copper than Mobil 1. This engine has been running Mobil 1 and I am sure it's quite clean inside.

I can understand if you used Redline in some old sludged up engine, it would clean up all sorts of stuff. I see that quite often with PAO/Ester synthetics. But this is a low mileage engine....

 

[mormit]

I agree that the use of 600ppm in Redline is probably a bit excessive when M1 and Schaeffers show excellent wear at much lower concentrations (80 and 150ppm, respectively).

Comparing one or two individual analysis is a bit unfair though. As it was mentioned previously, that is not a controlled study. The folks who buy Redline are probably pushing their vehicles harder....it's in the name, redline.

That said, I believe that whopping dose of moly is not based on Redline lubricant research but rather market research. Touting their oil as having more than anyone else is a marketing gimick, nevermind that the extra 400ppm is doing nuthin.

[ November 19, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: mormit ]

 

[MolaKule]

Good question TooSlick.

I have pondered that meself. From an additive standpoint, I think Redline uses a different moly additive than does Mobil or Schaeffers, and so it requires more moly in ppm than does the type used in Schaeffer's and Mobil.

Secondly, Mobil seems to use a higher level of the Borate Esters, which act as AW's and detergents, so their moly level can be lower.

IE, in Mobil you have ZDDP, Moly, and Boron as AW/EP additives.

 

[MolaKule]

BTW,

Moly additives are not really new. In 1980-82, then Exxon, Esso, Mobil, and Lubrizol, developed moly additives and it was about 1983 that moly was added to fully formulated oils.

[ November 19, 2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[TooSlick]

Molakule,

I did download SAE paper # 2000-01-1992 today, which details the formulation of a 5w-30, full synthetic, heavy duty diesel oil with MoDTC. It is translated from the original Japanese, so reading it is like listening to the dialog from "Godzilla vs Mothra". It's by Mitsubishi Motors and Mitsubishi Oil Company ....

 

[mormit]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
BTW,

Moly additives are not really new. In 1980-82, then Exxon, Esso, Mobil, and Lubrizol, developed moly additives and it was only about 1984 that moly was added to fully formulated oils.

---

Moly has been used in grease for much longer, right?

 

[MolaKule]

It is translated from the original Japanese, so reading it is like listening to the dialog from "Godzilla vs Mothra". It's by Mitsubishi Motors and Mitsubishi Oil Company ....

Mormit,
Yes, moly disulfide (the crytaline, yellow-to-black stuff) was added to greases and other heavy lubricants about 1958.

[ November 19, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[mormit]

Thank you wise master. Many bows.

 

[MolaKule]

Two other items:

In addition to moly being a great FM, AW/EP, and anti-oxidant additives, there are two side benefits to moly additives.

When Magnesium sulphonate (detergent) and moly (MoTDC) are placed together in a formulation, these chemicals reduce phosphorous poisoning of the catalytic convertor.

Secondly, Engine NOX emission is reduced by the addition of MoTDC.

As early as 1983, it was reported that, "One advantage of moly dithiocarbamates is that, unlike moly dithiophosphates and zinc dithiophosphates, they do not poison automobile exhaust catalysts."

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I asked the coporate office while I was touring the plant last week as to how long have they been using moly in motor oils and such and they said they have been using moly since the late 1940's.

 

[MolaKule]

When I listed my dates, I was speaking of the industry in general, not Schaeffer's specifically.

Schaeffer's has been using moly for a long time, in fact they were one of a few companies that pioneered the use of moly in lubricants.

The moly they had been using in their oils from '48 to about '84 was moly disulfide, the greenish/black variety (which is still used in their HD gear lubes and greases). Later, when Mitchell of Esso and others developed the more stable dithiocarbamate that went into solution, the MoTDC was added to their fully formulated motor oils.

[ November 20, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[MolaKule]

One of the major questions has been, "Why use ZDDP's if you have moly?"

Well, MoTDC needs some of the ZDDP's sulphur and phos to activate properly. Some of the sulphur comes from the oil or some sufur-type oil additive, such as oleic sulphide.

What is interesting is that both are AW/FM's, but work at different temps.

[ November 20, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[dragboat]

Although we have all to some extent lived without moly for years I kinda like the idea it is plated to my cams during the winter cold starts and passing gear in the heat of summer.

I guess it should at least in theory fill in scores of the piston and cylinder walls if minor ?
Any thoughts on the above?