Go For Windows 7 or Windows 8.1?

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Exactly. Historically, one has had to beg a lot of these companies with their proprietary formats to allow even backwards compatibility beyond more than one retail version of software.


Yes - I did not even touch on the forced upgrade treadmill.
 
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
That is precisely their business model. It's called "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish". Their whole enterprise is predicate on locking in organizations to the point that re-formatting and converting data and re-training people is prohibitively expensive and difficult. This is the nature of "ownership" and the vigilant protections ownership of value requires (that free, open-source software is free of). My wife's school board has wanted to migrate office and databases for years, but they can't: They're locked in by the very people they paid to provide a service to them!

M$'s office and database (and all other) file formats are closed-source; meaning no one else can, without the pain of reverse-engineering, know HOW to be compatible. Complicating this is the fact that M$ then **patents** these technologies in order to forcibly **stop** others from attaining compatibility. It is deliberate, indeed. Their users are cash cows to be trapped and exploited.

So you are saying that once MS creates a format they actively do things to continue to prevent open source companies from making their software compatible with MS? I do not believe that is true aside from the original development and I fully understand the patent aspect. However, I do believe that MS creates a format that open source companies do not want to use time/resources/money to make their own software compatible with MS. In addition, the open source office suites are also proprietary to a point. Has anyone tried to take a document created in Open Office and use it in Libre Office (as an example)? I have and some of the formatting is equally destroyed. From my point of view, there are very few cases of 100% compatibility between much of the software out in the world today particularly when it comes to office type software. I probably use word processors more than most, so perhaps I am more sensitive to the incompatibility aspect, but perhaps one day there will be a "one size fits all" software (maybe like PDF software) so that documents can truly flow between suites (one can always hope).
 
Microsoft even has institutions in bed with them. When my wife started going back to school I couldn't believe instructors were requiring simple assignments be in docx. "Oh you'll need to buy Office." I'm pretty sure I looked at the open source stuff and at the time it didn't support docx. Or I missed it.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
So you are saying that once MS creates a format they actively do things to continue to prevent open source companies from making their software compatible with MS?


I am saying they obfuscate their formats intentionally to protect against **anyone** using them, open-source or not. To do otherwise would be stupid for a for-profit organization seeking to maximize its leverage of intellectual property. Why in the blazes would they make it easy for NON-Microsoft projects to inter-operate with their proprietary products?!?!?! That would quite literally work in direct opposition to their raison d'etre: profit.

Open-source software does not view you as a cow to be exploited - it exists for your benefit; and therefore it makes inter-operability a priority both so that you as a user can work with freedom (!) and so that the makers of different projects that perform the same functions can make use of the innovations of other projects (!!)
 
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
So you are saying that once MS creates a format they actively do things to continue to prevent open source companies from making their software compatible with MS?

I am saying they obfuscate their formats intentionally to protect against **anyone** using them, open-source or not. To do otherwise would be stupid for a for-profit organization seeking to maximize its leverage of intellectual property. Why in the blazes would they make it easy for NON-Microsoft projects to inter-operate with their proprietary products?!?!?! That would quite literally work in direct opposition to their raison d'etre: profit.

This clarifies and I fully agree--no "for profit" is going to make it easy to give away the farm as it were. I misunderstood your original post...
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
In addition, the open source office suites are also proprietary to a point. Has anyone tried to take a document created in Open Office and use it in Libre Office (as an example)? I have and some of the formatting is equally destroyed.

I think that's an artifact of the forking and minor changes in default formatting, more than anything else. If something doesn't work, it's because someone broke something, and probably needs a dressing down in Linus Torvalds style.
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I don't have an issue, because I tweak the heck out of OpenOffice or LibreOffice word processors wherever I install them. I've only had a couple minor issues with spreadsheets, and that was formatting. The word processors (and documents created and shared) had no problems because my tweaking is quite precise.

As I mentioned, MS (and other proprietary software) do some pretty ugly things with their formats, and not just to prevent you from using it in something open source. Years ago (when I was still using Windows regularly), if one bought a word processor, one would save the documents in whatever format they specified. The next version of the software would be able to handle that version of the document. If I waited for two or three versions of the software to pass through stores, I would be out of luck with my documents.

MS, WordPerfect Corp., and others at the time really pushed one to buy each and every version of the software. And if you didn't, your data was orphaned. Look at AV software in recent years. Again, I don't know how it is now, but the last time I was on Windows, a few of the packages would, after a year, allow you to renew your subscription for $10 a year for virus definitions, but would not allow automatic updates. For that, you'd need a new software package.

I don't miss all that nonsense in the least.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Microsoft even has institutions in bed with them. When my wife started going back to school I couldn't believe instructors were requiring simple assignments be in docx. "Oh you'll need to buy Office." I'm pretty sure I looked at the open source stuff and at the time it didn't support docx. Or I missed it.


I think you must have missed it, or it was a long time ago. Almost every word processing software, for-cost or for-free, supports the .docx file type. .docx came about with Word 2007, and I'm sure that OpenOffice.org at the time supported it.

Either way, it's a very widely-supported file type now.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: hatt
Microsoft even has institutions in bed with them. When my wife started going back to school I couldn't believe instructors were requiring simple assignments be in docx. "Oh you'll need to buy Office." I'm pretty sure I looked at the open source stuff and at the time it didn't support docx. Or I missed it.


I think you must have missed it, or it was a long time ago. Almost every word processing software, for-cost or for-free, supports the .docx file type. .docx came about with Word 2007, and I'm sure that OpenOffice.org at the time supported it.

Either way, it's a very widely-supported file type now.
This was like 09 I believe. Pretty sure OpenOffice was the one I checked and didn't see the option to save in docx. Anyway, old news now, MS got my money. It also doesn't matter how widely it's supported now. MS will have a new must have file type out soon.
 
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Either way, it's a very widely-supported file type now.

Supported and 100% compatible are not necessarily the same thing. In no way are my Word documents fully compatible with any of the open source word processors. There is always formatting issues and tweaking that must be done to correct them. Libre, Open, Star, and Kingsoft all cause issues with Word 2010/2013 docx documents--depending on the level of formatting contained within them. Now, in native open source mode, they are fine and of course, free, but not when going between formats. I am only saying this for informational purposes (not to argue your point).
 
I like 8 but having issues with YT videos playing back right half the time now.
 
Windows 7 is a very good operating system. I think Windows 8.1 is better if you have Start8 software. That software will pretty much make it just like Windows 7.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Windows 7 is a very good operating system. I think Windows 8.1 is better if you have Start8 software. That software will pretty much make it just like Windows 7.


Yes: if you spend the 5 bucks on Start8 and boot into the desktop, you don't even know you're using Windows 8 compared with 7 (except for the faster performance). We have 8(.1.1) on our desktop at home and I never see the Metro screen on it. Ever. It boots straight to the desktop and I have a real start menu. It's really very nice.

Essentially, you're spending 5 bucks (on Start8) to get a Windows 7 interface on the faster-performing Windows 8 OS.
 
And Microsoft is SUPPOSED to have returned to reality somewhat and the upcoming Windows 9 is SUPPOSED to have better support for desktop computers.

Without Start8 I would not even consider a Windows 8/8.1.1 computer. It may be great on a tablet computer but it is a nightmare on a desktop computer designed to be used with a mouse.

With Start8 as you say Windows 8/8.1.1 becomes a better, faster version of Windows 7.

And if a person wants to use the 'Metro' apps and run Windows from the 'Metro' screen you still can. Microsoft no longer uses the 'Metro' name and I don't know what they use now.

With Start8, all of 5 dollars worth of software, Windows 8.1.1 becomes a better version of Windows 7. It may not be as 'pretty' but it runs faster.
 
^^^ Where were you guys earlier with all your Windows 8 comments? I didn't really know from what was being said that I could setup Windows 8 to look like Windows 7. I probably would have ordered Win 8.1 then ... oh well, I'm sure I'll like Win 7 just fine and it will be plenty fast for what I do with the computer anyway - especially with the hardware I'll be running it on.
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When I had Win 8 I ran it to look like 7 too, but like I said, all the metro stuff is baked into Win 8 and would keep finding a way to be really annoying.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Where were you guys earlier with all your Windows 8 comments? I didn't really know from what was being said that I could setup Windows 8 to look like Windows 7. I probably would have ordered Win 8.1 then ... oh well, I'm sure I'll like Win 7 just fine and it will be plenty fast for what I do with the computer anyway - especially with the hardware I'll be running it on.
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LOL - I tried to say something earlier.
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I have not had a single issue with the "metro" interface attempting to take over Start8. My menu and system looks and behaves exactly Windows 7, except it is MUCH faster than Win7 and is more "fluid".
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Where were you guys earlier with all your Windows 8 comments? I didn't really know from what was being said that I could setup Windows 8 to look like Windows 7. I probably would have ordered Win 8.1 then ... oh well, I'm sure I'll like Win 7 just fine and it will be plenty fast for what I do with the computer anyway - especially with the hardware I'll be running it on.
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LOL - I tried to say something earlier.
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I have not had a single issue with the "metro" interface attempting to take over Start8. My menu and system looks and behaves exactly Windows 7, except it is MUCH faster than Win7 and is more "fluid".


Humm, maybe I'll call Dell and see if I can get Win 8.1 installed instead, if it's not too late.

So if you use Start8 and setup Win 8.1 right it will look and operate just like Win 7 ... visually speaking?
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
LOL - I tried to say something earlier.
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I have not had a single issue with the "metro" interface attempting to take over Start8. My menu and system looks and behaves exactly Windows 7, except it is MUCH faster than Win7 and is more "fluid".

It's not really that is takes over, but that there is so much of it baked into the entire OS! The start menu app only puts a band aid on the whole mess. Then there are the updates that only make things worse..

Not sure where you get more "fluid" from.. My experience was completely the opposite!
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Windows 8.1 runs great on our computer. We've had a low-end Dell Inspiron 660s on our desktop for close to a year now and 8.1 has been fantastic. I spent $5 on Start8 and won't go back to 7 if you made me. 8.1 has been very enjoyable.


Zee0six, my suggestion for Start8 was on the second page of the thread.
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If you install Start8, your dealings with the Modern (Metro) interface are pretty much over. You get a real start menu (with a customizable look) and you boot straight to the desktop. I never see the Modern tiled screen. Ever. Windows 8 can be tweaked to look and feel just like Windows 7. It's just a much better-performing version of Windows 7.

8 also has some great features that usually don't get mentioned, especially by those who don't like it:

- File History is a fantastic new fully integrated incremental backup system, and works very similar to Time Machine in Mac OS if you are familiar with that. All of your files are kept backed up, and you can step back and pull an earlier version of that file if you need it. If you have it set up to be backed up to a separate hard drive (as you should), it's simple to restore your data if you have a primary hard drive failure or if you move to a new machine. This is an excellent new tool that comes with Windows 8.

- Startup time is lightning-quick. My little Dell Inspiron 660s is at the login screen in about 15 seconds from the time I press the power button. It also shuts down much quicker.

- New Task Manager. One of the things I love about Windows 8 is its new Task Manager. Rather than try to explain it, I'll link to a nice article about it.

- Windows 8 supports broadband tethering. This may or may not be of use to you. You can use a Windows 8 computer as a router to which you can tether anything else. If you have your Windows 8 computer plugged directly into your broadband device (cable modem, etc), and your computer has Wi-Fi hardware, you can share that connection and tether your smart phone or any other Wi-Fi device to your computer. If you connect your computer to a router already via Wi-Fi, your computer can act as a Wi-Fi "repeater" if you will, so you can be further away from the actual router and still get good signal (because you're connecting to the computer instead). Pretty slick.

I'll be the first to say that I don't use a lot of other Microsoft software. We have Office 2013 at home, but I prefer LibreOffice. IE 11 obviously comes with Windows, but I use both Chrome and FireFox instead. Windows 8 includes tight SkyDrive (OneDrive now) integration, which is good if you use that service. I don't, and use Google Drive and Dropbox instead. I don't use a lot of Microsoft stuff, and my initial exposure to 8 (the original 8.0) on a laptop was pretty poor. So it was with great hesitation that I bought a new 8.1 desktop, but my opinion of it has turned around 180 degrees from my first experience. 8.1 (and now 8.1.1) has proven to me to be an excellent operating system that CAN BE set up to look and feel a lot like Windows 7, for a more traditional Windows user like myself.
 
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