GM's new 9 speed 9T50

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Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Is the ZF a pile of junk hardware wise, or is its programming in these applications lame ?

Bad code can hobble the best transmissions.

UD

It's a little of both - Chrysler's problems involve HMI(with someone getting run over by a Jeep supposedly in P), Honda is more with code on the TLX and Pilot Touring/MDX, but their shifter is kludgey.

You can build a shift-by-wire shifter using a lever - as Toyota and Mercedes does. Otherwise, pushbutton shifters instead of knobs or triggers need to be mainstreamed. ZF has been using pushbutton shifters on buses for decades and it's a simple system that works, but cars have a park lock in them.

http://3-gproductions.com/new/zfhp500shift.html
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


And yet any automaker running with old designs gets ripped on for not being cutting edge.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


And yet any automaker running with old designs gets ripped on for not being cutting edge.

*cough* Toyota *cough*

But hey, the Corolla now offers a CVT.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


And yet any automaker running with old designs gets ripped on for not being cutting edge.

If cutting edge is going to be a headache like the ZF 9 speed, give me the old design. OTOH if the cutting edge product is problem free, I'm in. I just don't want to be one of the first people in.
 
This could be very interesting. If I dont subaru in a few years

I am really interested in the diesel Cruze hatchback. OF course it should be available in manual but I might consider an auto.

yes, GM is bringing a diesel cruze hatchback 6mt to usa WOO!!

Can you say 50mpg? Also the 240ft-lb of torque could be fun.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Ward's article on the 9T50.




Quote:
The unit is filled with Castrol-brand DEXRON-VI fluid to eliminate service changes under normal driving conditions. GM says the fluid features consistent viscosity, consistent shift performance and reduced degradation.


Hmmm, the grapevine said it was going to Fac Filled with Dexron HP:


Dexron HP
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump

Quote:
“We don’t see the benefit of going higher than 10 forward speeds,” Meagher tells WardsAuto following a presentation on the technologies here.

But never say never, he adds, noting that when GM deployed its revolutionary lineup of 6-speed automatic transmissions a decade ago no one imagined hardware and software technology would advance so dramatically to permit 9- and 10-speed executions.

“So you never really know for sure,” he admits.


Translation: "We made some nice money on our complicated garbage so we are going to do more messing with what already worked."

Quote:
The new 9-speed yielded GM 60 new patents and required 800 prototypes. It is the same size as the old 6-speed and weighs about 22 lbs. (10 kg) more. The most unique element of the unit is an industry-first deployment of a selectable 1-way clutch, which can hold torque or operate freely depending on the situation.


Translation: " You'll enjoy the cookies and upselling in our nice dealership as you await the TSB update of the logic that is messed up after owning the vehicle a year. Don't worry, Ricky has the Ozzy Playing and does a gudenough job"

Quote:
The unit is filled with Castrol-brand DEXRON-VI fluid to eliminate service changes under normal driving conditions. GM says the fluid features consistent viscosity, consistent shift performance and reduced degradation.


Translation: "We spoke with Toyota about their brilliant dipstick-less method in which you need a vacuum supplycombined with electronic temp information combined with the overflow plug procedure..... wait.....nah.....just burn that baby up!"

Quote:
In-house logics software inside a 32-bit transmission control module handles all shift events for smooth, precise ratio changes, GM says. It also monitors transmission performance and compensates for wear in parts such as the clutch plate to maintain consistent performance over time.


Translation: "We found a new way to give you a transient 'shift quality code' that you can't reproduce at the dealer because the car is too warm by the time you drive it there"

Quote:
The controller is mounted outside the gearbox to reduce packaging and manufacturing complexity, and it pulls vehicle-specific calibration from the cloud to be added to the core program as the car or truck exits the assembly line. It also enables manual shift control and grade logic, GM says.


Translation: We can deny you warranty work because we know if you waited the appropriate amount of time to shift from reverse to drive backing out of WalMart. Oh, and it now will be affected by road salt."

Quote:
The 9T50 features a wider 7.6:1 overall ratio, compared with 6.0:1 in its 6-speed predecessor, a deep 4.69 first gear for off-the-line performance and a tall 0.62 top gear for fuel-efficient, low-rpm highway cruising and optimal NVH.

Translation: "This baby will limp into the tallest gear possible and shudder till the cows come home."

Sixth gear is equivalent to eighth gear on the new transmission, too, so compared with the 6-speed the 9-speed offers two fuel-saving overdrive gears. Seventh gear is the direct-drive gear, while ninth gear is in use up to 52% of the time.


Translation: "Shudder baby Shudder... tech report "normal characteristics"


LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...



C'mon! It's BITOG-pessimism (and new technology phobia) is the order of the day!!!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: supton
Ward's article on the 9T50.




Quote:
The unit is filled with Castrol-brand DEXRON-VI fluid to eliminate service changes under normal driving conditions. GM says the fluid features consistent viscosity, consistent shift performance and reduced degradation.


Hmmm, the grapevine said it was going to Fac Filled with Dexron HP:


Dexron HP


It seems very strange that GM would come out with an 8 speed, put a new Dexron HP fluid in it then come out with a 9 speed and put Dex VI? That doesn't seem logical. Dexron HP for a single transmission generation?
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


You have to admit that the freaks came out where the 4 speed autos were concerned.

I don't think any generation of transmission will ever have a more chequered record than the 4 speed autos.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


When CAFE gets eliminated next year, 4-Speed auto transmissions will be all the rage again.
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


When CAFE gets eliminated next year, 4-Speed auto transmissions will be all the rage again.
grin.gif



LOL along with 5W30 oil again.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


You have to admit that the freaks came out where the 4 speed autos were concerned.

I don't think any generation of transmission will ever have a more chequered record than the 4 speed autos.


What about the first-est generation? Packard, perhaps. There were a few in the 50's where the user still had a clutch but the trans could shift on its own; or perhaps it was the other way around, trans couldn't shift but it had a torque convertor (probably fluid coupler). I know more than a few were 2 speed but no ability to shift between the speeds; one had to select low gear if one wanted to accelerate fast. Those must have really cooked the trans fluid in city traffic, if left in high gear.

And let's not forget the carnage that PNDLR caused...

I recall some low capacity 3 speed autos were horrible. TH125? Take a good trans and remove parts, make it cheaper and lighter.

But yeah, it seems like 4 speed autos took a while to get the bugs out. Not sure how we could go from durable TH350, 400, C4, C6, 727 and 904 to 700R4 and AOD (I think the 500&518 though didn't have quite the same rep). I don't think it was from a lack of an ECU, either.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I heard all of the above nonsense when 4 speed OD slushboxes debuted...


When CAFE gets eliminated next year, 4-Speed auto transmissions will be all the rage again.
grin.gif



LOL along with 5W30 oil again.


HEY! my favorite manufacturer hasn't given up on 4AT's just yet. Still kickin', at least for some.

grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Yet I know folks here who have criticized the 8 speed in the 300's with the V6, seems to me the programming is the primary fault here...


I think the issue is the 8 speed in the V6 vehicles is not the same 8 speed that's used with the diesel, or Hemi Chrysler products. The HD unit is much better.


8 different 8HP models so far by my count. Used in a ton of new vehicles from Bentley to BMW...
 
9 speeds is too many speeds.

After 100K of going up and down through all those gears, it will be completely knackered and the lower gears in particular will get quite rough. With this many gears, you'd be better with a CVT.

What I would LIKE to see in transmissions for normal automotive applications is programming that detects hills and automatically kicks down (like Voith and ZF transmissions on buses do). The other aspect of this feature is hill descents, where autos have a nasty tendency of racing ahead - the hill sensing would then hold a lower gear, with locked torque converter for engine braking.
On that note, a hydraulic retarder device would be nice, too!

In most autos, I manually go through the gears anyway, particularly in situations where varying acceleration can cause too much up & down shifting. I also prefer to use engine brake over standing on the brakes in an auto. I've noticed on some vehicles that the torque-converter locks up in the lower gears in manual mode, whereas it won't when left in "D."

My other gripe is my overtaking technique; in a manual such as my E36, I drop (a) gear and floor it - but keep 3-4K RPM. In an auto, the trans will assume you want to rev out to line - making such a maneuver very awkward, particularly as you wait for the transmission to figure out how many gears to (roughly) shift through...
 
Originally Posted By: B320i
9 speeds is too many speeds.



What's the world coming to?

I'd better go out and change the oil in my PowerGlide.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Yet I know folks here who have criticized the 8 speed in the 300's with the V6, seems to me the programming is the primary fault here...


I think the issue is the 8 speed in the V6 vehicles is not the same 8 speed that's used with the diesel, or Hemi Chrysler products. The HD unit is much better.


8 different 8HP models so far by my count. Used in a ton of new vehicles from Bentley to BMW...


I'm referring to Chrysler products. IIRC the Hemi and diesel gets the heavy duty version, which is much better than the unit they're using behind the V6.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I'm referring to Chrysler products. IIRC the Hemi and diesel gets the heavy duty version, which is much better than the unit they're using behind the V6.


I'm pretty sure that the Heavy Duty Rams are only available in 6-speed auto.
 
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Is the ZF a pile of junk hardware wise, or is its programming in these applications lame ?

Bad code can hobble the best transmissions.

UD

Depends. ZF makes some of the greatest gearboxes. Their PDK in Porsche is with Getrag DTC unbeatable dual clutch transmission.
In BMW's, Audis etc. 6 and 8 speeds are unbreakable with 60K fluid changes.
Now, their 8speed in BMW is fast almost as dual clutch transmission. Sit in Audi with same transmission or VW, and things work differently, because each car manufacturer programs unit for their needs.
BMW, VW/Audi decided that they will not go with 9-10 speed. 9 speed is going into much cheaper cars, so probably unit is just cheaper generally and that is where problems are coming from.
 
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