GM W Body question

[supton]

3.1 versus 3.8, I know the 3.8 is legendary but is the 3.1 all that bad? Quick look shows that LeSabre is pretty long, while Century is a bit shorter, and I’d like for it to fit in my garage (potentially).

Also, how bad are the 4T60’s? They seem to get mixed reviews. I’d hate to spend what used cars go for now, then turn around to pay a shop to drop a reman in, that changes the TCO.

[I know 4T65 is newer but that’s the thing, I’m cheap and more apt to buy the 20 year old model.]

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Get an aftermarket transmission pan with a drain plug so you can drain the ATF regularly

The 3.1 and 3.4 have the LIM gasket issues, cracked elbows, etc.

 

[atikovi]

Sold this Skylark last month with the 3.1 and I have nothing bad to say about it. Supposedly the intake gaskets go bad, but if that's the only problem, so what.

 

[eljefino]

I had a year 2000 Century 3.1. Paid $300, LOL. It replaced a 1997 Olds Silhouette 3.4 as my "kids hauler."

Silhouette ran great, got 26-27 MPG highway with AC on.

So did the Century, and I gave up all that room. Maybe something wasn't quite right with that car. But it was disappointing.

It also rusted its rockers quite quickly, and its fuel and brake lines as well. Bare steel.

The tranny also wasn't perfect. There's a shift kit for it if you really want one. I did a pan drop & fluid change which made it worse, which makes me think it had some sort of additive.

These cars are trash, sorry. The Regal/ Intrigue 3.8 are better though but will rust in the same spots.

 

[supton]

It also rusted its rockers quite quickly, and its fuel and brake lines as well. Bare steel.

Couldn’t remember if they were that. Not for me, there are at least two things i want nothing to do with: compressing springs (for struts) and blowing a brake line. Bummer.

The hunt will continue.

 

[ls1mike]

Man, I am so glad we don't get rust. That seems to kill a ton of cars!

 

[supton]

Man, I am so glad we don't get rust. That seems to kill a ton of cars!

Yeah it's brutal. I kinda think it's ok for me, I tend to drive above average miles per year--done right, after ten years I can have every part on the car well-worn, and rust just setting in. It's not the lofty goal of keeping forever, but in terms of effort spent...

Ya know, I wonder if it's time to go back to VW? Wife gave me permission to do that. 2.5L pushing a 5MT? mpg is low but would I like commuting in something like that? nah, I need something more punishing, it's too easy to bend the speed limit at the moment...

 

[92saturnsl2]

The GM 60 degree V6 (2.8L, 3.1L, 3.4L whatever flavor) is a good engine, solid design for the most part. GM cut them off at the knees though with cheap parts, especially in the 3.1L days. If they had done without the wet intake (coolant running through it), or used a beefier gasket, a lot more of these cars would still be on the road.

Try to find a 3.1L (now that they're considered old) that hasn't had an intake manifold gasket replaced-- If you find one, go to your nearest gas station and buy a lottery ticket.

IF taken care of, the 3.1L can last a long time and be a very reliable engine. The problem is (with few exceptions), these were cheap(er) cars sold to folks who didn't know how to maintain them, didn't check fluids-- you know... ordinary folks. So buying a used one is a big gamble.

Unlucky "ordinary" folks with intake gasket failures had their coolant run dry / or oil mixed with coolant, tried to get home, and toasted an engine / head gasket. Then you have the cheap/desperate folks who notice it, but just add coolant / water to bandaid the problem and drive for thousands of miles that way until things get really bad. The lucky ones experienced a moderate overheating event, took it to their mechanic in time, and soldiered on. The really lucky ones caught it in time (dropping coolant levels) and took it to someone (or repaired themselves) who repaired it right with updated parts.

All of the above means that any 3.1L engine should be immediately suspect. 3.4L are better. GM eventually figured it out and 3.5L and more modern variants were pretty reliable and long lasting.

 

[clinebarger]

Also, how bad are the 4T60’s? They seem to get mixed reviews. I’d hate to spend what used cars go for now, then turn around to pay a shop to drop a reman in, that changes the TCO.

The 4T60E is a decent unit & doesn't suffer from the Pressure Control Issues that the 4T65E does....Or the "Long Shift" P1811 DTC.

But is does share some issues....Like the 4th Gear Hub Splines stripping & the Forward Band breaking....But....Without the P1811 DTC & the PCM has no control over Line Pressure, It can't go into "Protect Mode" Commanding max Line Pressure which is a big contributor to the Splines stripping & the Band breaking on 4T65E's.

 

[clinebarger]

4T65E......PCM controlled Line Pressure via a PCS Solenoid.
4T60E......Vacuum Modulator controls Line Pressure via Manifold Vacuum.
440-T4/4T60....Uses a Throttle Valve Cable in conjunction with a Vacuum Modulator to control Line Pressure.

 

[wlk]

I had several 3.1l in my oldsmobiles and pontiac's over the years. LIM gasket is a fairly easy job, just don't forget the pushrods for intake and exhaust are different lengths, made that mistake once. Very reliable and good mpg motors. Have a 92 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 3.1l in the driveway now w 225k +/- miles on it. Bought it 6 years ago, 192k on it, and been a reliable car with only some minor repairs. No trans issues in any of them, yet I do drain and fills on them regularly.

 

[PF52]

Get an aftermarket transmission pan with a drain plug so you can drain the ATF regularly

The 3.1 and 3.4 have the LIM gasket issues, cracked elbows, etc.

Cracked elbows sounds more like a 3800 issue.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Cracked elbows sounds more like a 3800 issue.

Yep, the cracked elbows were a malady on the Series II 3.8L. The 3.8L had intake gasket issues as well, not uncommon for the lower intake gasket to fail in the same manner as on the 3.1L. The upper intake on non-supercharged engines had the EGR stovepipe running through it, which would cause a failure of the UIM gasket in that area. Not GM's best design.

 

[Andrew1972]

If a W body is running and in decent condition for decent price point (under $5k?????I would not care what engine GM threw into it given its 2022 now.

 

[92saturnsl2]

The 4T60E is a decent unit & doesn't suffer from the Pressure Control Issues that the 4T65E does....Or the "Long Shift" P1811 DTC.

But is does share some issues....Like the 4th Gear Hub Splines stripping & the Forward Band breaking....But....Without the P1811 DTC & the PCM has no control over Line Pressure, It can't go into "Protect Mode" Commanding max Line Pressure which is a big contributor to the Splines stripping & the Band breaking on 4T65E's.

Interesting you mention that. I've had zero issues with the 4T60E in my '96 Grand Prix and I'm certain it's the original. It shifts as good as any new 4 speed auto I've ever owned, very smooth.

I had an '00 Bonneville SSEI with the 4T65-hd, and that had nothing but problems after 150K. I'd get the long shift code and often times BAM the transmission would start whaling itself into gears so hard you'd think you got rear ended. I put in a Trans-go shift kit which actually remedied the problem. Then shortly after I had torque converter lockup clutch issues, where the lockup clutch would go berserk / stick on at times when you were under load (like going up a hill) in a higher gear. Usually happened after a long drive. I didn't have the mechanical knowledge, tools or space to repair the transmission myself back then, so I traded it in. If I could go back in time, I'd get that car back and fix the transmission without a second thought.

 

[paulo57509]

The Lumina in my signature has the 3.1. The FWD 3.1 with the Gen II heads is a decent engine. IMO, it's been pretty much bulletproof for all of its +200k mile life. The rest of the car, not so much. The build quality is just bad. The PS system is a chronic leaker.

In general, if this car has fluids in it, it leaks out. If the fluids are outside, they leak in.

The other good thing other than the engine is the A/C. I rebuilt the (leaking, what else?) system in 2004, converted it to R134a and it still blows frigid cold air.

The car looks like hell but it starts and goes every time.

 

[mrbreezeet1]

The Lumina in my signature has the 3.1. The FWD 3.1 with the Gen II heads is a decent engine. IMO, it's been pretty much bulletproof for all of its +200k mile life. The rest of the car, not so much. The build quality is just bad. The PS system is a chronic leaker.

In general, if this car has fluids in it, it leaks out. If the fluids are outside, they leak in.

The other good thing other than the engine is the A/C. I rebuilt the (leaking, what else?) system in 2004, converted it to R134a and it still blows frigid cold air.

The car looks like hell but it starts and goes every time.

l have a 2001 Grand Prix SE with the 3.1L. It runs great, only have 107,500 miles on it.

 

[emmett442]

Owning many varieties of these cars and engines, I enjoyed most the 3.1/3.4 in these smaller cars. In comparison to the 3.8, they had seemingly great low end/off idle torque, Felt effortless, and a great exhaust note. 3.8 was a better performer when you opened them up on the highway.

I also live in a rust prone area. The bodies themselves held up relatively well, but hid a lot of serious issues underneath. There were serious problems with these rotting the subframes and worse, the subframe mounting points.

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Can you tell if the 3.1L has had the lower intake gaskets replaced? I got mine at 104,000 miles, with unknown history.
At that mileage, it "may" have had them replaced already.

 

[TmanP]

Well, you can do the W-body with the 3.8 if garage space is an issue. 05-09 Lacrosse and Grand Prix from about the same time (04-08 maybe?) were W-bodies that were primarily equipped with the 3.8. If you’re looking a bit older (you said Century/Lesabre which makes me think maybe you are), the Regal came with the 3.8 as well.

I’ve driven a few 3.1/3.4 powered cars (Impala/Century) and found the engines to be fine. But the 3.8 is really a nice engine…

For my money, the drawbacks of an old GM car (and there are some) are better balanced with the 3.8 than with the smaller V6 options. I’d say don’t compromise on that, if this is the route you’re looking to go.

I had a Lacrosse for a few years before the Camry, and the 3.8 in it was a fantastic engine - easily the best part of the car.

What are you looking for with this? First car for a kid? Replacement for one of your current cars?

Edit: I saw this under recent topics and didn’t realize this was such an old thread, but I think my sentiment still stands.