GM pensions major part of collapse

[Spector]

401Ks will never ever (even if people actually participated in them) replace the traditional pension plan. And the only reason companies all drifted to them over a pension plan is simple, cost. They save a huge amount of money and with people leaving and forfeiting the company matches etc their cost is even further reduced. Seem almost everyone at my ex employer was amazed that they lost their company match for the year they departed. Few people read the fine print on these plans. retirement funds are not an issue with employers, only saving costs count and 401Ks do that. If employers and accountants and gov actually enforced the rules that pensions had to actually be funded by companies in lieu of using the money for other purposes we may never have seen 401K plans in the first place.

Only stock peddlars/brokers push the notion that 401ks can replace pensions.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Only stock peddlars/brokers push the notion that 401ks can replace pensions.


Exactly. It's merely divesting anyone from assuring value. It put your money in the market to be harvested.

The physics of money don't change. The ways thieves figure out how to take it from you just get more creative.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
If employers and accountants and gov actually enforced the rules that pensions had to actually be funded by companies in lieu of using the money for other purposes we may never have seen 401K plans in the first place.

The government doesn't fund their own retirement and health care funds properly so it would be a little two faced to make companies do it don't you think?

And most if not all pension funds invest in the stock market...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
The government doesn't fund their own retirement and health care funds properly so it would be a little two faced to make companies do it don't you think?


Aren't you constantly calling (rightly) for the Govt to correctly fund it ?

Why does business get let off until then ?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Truth is national health care would make the US more competitive on the world market.

How does drastic tax increases and even greater debt make us more competitive?


It would put us more at par with our industrial trading partners that have already gotten by this hurdle. They spend much less on medical care than we do.

What benefits do we have with our current system ..as a nation, that is ..hmm (imagine a Wm. F. Buckley, Jr. "hmmm")?? Now I DID NOT ASK if "some" get better benefits. I stipulated the nation among other nations.

You are an American, correct? You want a strong America, correct? You wouldn't want to be lacking where others are advanced, correct? Good boy.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
And most if not all pension funds invest in the stock market...


Product of the bursting market. Many pensions were backed by cash or company stock ..or government bonds. The 80's, with near triple digit gains (fueled by pension money) made other forms look too low in performance. This same market put a lot of businesses out of business since nobody wanted 3% ROI when you could get in on the current economic fad.

 

[Shannow]

Problem with voluntary pension investment funds is the requirement that they grow.

Where do they get the constant growth from ?

Where does the "system" get constant growth from, to feed the investors ?

Pensions invested on the stock market due to there being no other way of "getting ahead" mean losers and sharks.

Lots of people losing a little allow a few to gain much.

 

[Gary Allan]

Nobody wants to see that, Shannow. Tempest will just come up with a "you expect government to do better?" counter non-point.

The bottom line is there never will be a magic fountain of money regardless of where you put it and where it's ultimately funded from. The notion that private gain will be any more magic than public gain is a lie ..or a foolish false belief out of ignorance.

The current comical scam are educational savings accounts and medical expense savings accounts. If enough of the herd actually used them, the market for education and medical treatment would just adjust to soak it up.

You just need a few attitude adjustments of the right people to change their hearts and minds.

 

[H2GURU]

For the union bashers here I hope you have really really "good" jobs... and have done your homework. The proven successful draw down rate of your pension-retirement fund is right at 4.5%. So, if you want to maintain an average lifestyle you better start saving. If you could save at least $1,000,000 ( after everything else is PAID for) that would be a good start as this will only get you $45,000/yr. in today's dollars. I doubt most can get even 1/2 of that after raising children, and housing costs, etc. GOOD LUCK... you're goona' need it!

 

[jcwit]

Not to be bashing union members as I have many friends who get a union pension and I am happy they have been able to retire without worry about finiances, but here is another viewpoint.

Many many people look down on others who get NEEDED welfare, or a government pension, or government disability, I assume because all of us help with their support thru taxes, which non of us like.

However supporting union members is somewhat the same as the union collects dues (taxes) from its members who wages are passed on to the consumer who in turn is paying for the dues (taxes) thru higher costs of whatever was manufactured.

The end consumer has no control either way, whether the person is supported by the government or supported thru a union pension.

Of course this is why the market of chinese goods is so large, not only here in the U.S. but all over the world. Now before you all jump and claim I only buy A
merican, take a good look at your shoes, the computer/laptop in front of you, the TV you watch, that appliance that sayes LG and is such good quality?, and all the other items we all use in our
daily lives.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cutehumor]

Originally Posted By: H2GURU
For the union bashers here I hope you have really really "good" jobs... and have done your homework. The proven successful draw down rate of your pension-retirement fund is right at 4.5%. So, if you want to maintain an average lifestyle you better start saving. If you could save at least $1,000,000 ( after everything else is PAID for) that would be a good start as this will only get you $45,000/yr. in today's dollars. I doubt most can get even 1/2 of that after raising children, and housing costs, etc. GOOD LUCK... you're goona' need it!


that kinda turned me off from buying a UAW built vehicle

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
The pensions and health care costs are the root cause of all of Detroit's problems.


That's true. Another good reason for national health care. You'll never be able to save enough $$$ to retire on a 401K. Pension is a lot better for the worker. Thank God there is still social security because that's what most retirees are going to be living on anyway.


There is no good reason for national healthcare...ask anyone in Canada or the UK. They all advise against it. National healthcare will chase another 20% of the manufacturing base out of the US. Then cap & trade will get another 30%. People should pay their own healthcare. I have been paying mine for 30 years and it is top notch. The governments theft of SS dollars will only continue with healthcare.


Most of us actually LIKE our healthcare system.....

Many times the people with higher incomes in Canada just head to the USA, and pay doctors there to do the job.

Seems like the wrong way of doing things....

 

[hone eagle]

Canada is a free country

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Problem with voluntary pension investment funds is the requirement that they grow.

Where do they get the constant growth from ?

Where does the "system" get constant growth from, to feed the investors ?

Pensions invested on the stock market due to there being no other way of "getting ahead" mean losers and sharks.

Lots of people losing a little allow a few to gain much.

As Gary stated, how is this different with Gov.? With SS, you only get more funds with higher taxes and/or more people.

 

[Gary Allan]

So ..essentially it's choose your liar or myth. Who are you going to be boned by and not achieve the goal that you set out to accomplish in seeking benefit.

What more and more of you are realizing (and many of you have for some time and have quietly avoiding its pitfalls) ..our very existence ..at least economically, is nothing more than a ponzy scheme from beginning to end.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I'm not anti business but its seems the promised economic benefits of reducing taxes never hit the bottom 10-15% of citizens.


Exactly ..and that bottom 10-15% are down cycled and more are pushed into the economically dysfunctional status.

It's just as bad for everyone above them. The only real beneficiaries are those on Wall St. that take everyone's pension money that's sitting in 401k's.


The bottom 15% don't pay any income tax at all. In fact they get money back that they didn't pay in. Actually the number is higher but why quibble about it.

What other benefits should they be receiving? Should we give them even more back at the end of the year?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I'm not anti business but its seems the promised economic benefits of reducing taxes never hit the bottom 10-15% of citizens.


Exactly ..and that bottom 10-15% are down cycled and more are pushed into the economically dysfunctional status.

It's just as bad for everyone above them. The only real beneficiaries are those on Wall St. that take everyone's pension money that's sitting in 401k's.


The bottom 15% don't pay any income tax at all. In fact they get money back that they didn't pay in. Actually the number is higher but why quibble about it.

What other benefits should they be receiving? Should we give them even more back at the end of the year?



You're always going to have an underclass. It wasn't so much of an issue when we could afford to tuck them away in acceptable poverty.

Now that they're numbers are swelling, and the tab is growing and (and much more importantly) THOSE WHO WERE ONCE VIABLE AND FOOTING THE BILL are shrinking ..it's a problem.


So, do we throw the useless deeper into poverty ...or do we stop or slow the mechanisms that make them so unaffordable and add to their numbers?

There is no "all win" scenario there.

This is why I totally go overboard on consequences and necessary side effects.

Just take and endless train of mergers and acquisitions. At some point you'll have a very large segment of your population doing nothing and costing a bunch ..with a very few "producers" to pay the bills.

Again, if you could just get rid of them, it would be much easier (I'm being semi-serious here with only a minor tongue in cheek). Since we can't do that, just what is going to serve all interests BEST in total and overall outcomes from a national interest standpoint?

 

[Steve S]

Wait till the people wake up to the government employees pensions!!!.

 

[oilboy123]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Wait till the people wake up to the government employees pensions!!!.


No kidding....

 

[Cutehumor]

One thing about Pensions. It encourages people not to have any savings for retirement. My dad gets a Pension. He didn't save anything for retirement. He relies on his Pension and Social Security for his only source of income. If something happened to one or both of these entitlements, our baby boomers will be in trouble.