GM and Honda calling it quits...

I think the competition for the bigger/more advanced carmakers is too established for more big capital expenditure risk. The necessity to delivery short term shareholder value weighs too heavily now. Solid state batteries and other technologies might change the landscape in the future.

As a geologist in the energy sector who has directly interfaced with field researchers and other experts on this topic for 20 years in both academic and professional capacities, being barred from this ongoing science denialism conversation is rather frustrating.
 
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goingplacesanddoingstuff said:
I think the competition for the bigger/more advanced carmakers is too established for more big capital expenditure risk. The necessity to delivery short term shareholder value weighs too heavily now. Solid state batteries and other technologies might change the landscape in the future.

As a geologist in the energy sector who has directly interfaced with field researchers and other experts on this topic for 20 years in both academic and professional capacities, being barred from this ongoing science denialism conversation is rather frustrating.
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Agree mostly. Since that topic is the raison d'être of EVs it is meaningless to have a conversation and segregate it.
 
wpod said:
I would like to ask what would make you want an Ev?
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EV would fit in nicely for couples around town vehicle and with taxpayers footing $7,500 at point of sale starting 2024 is the slam dunk.
A small EV like the Bolt or Equinox fills the community purpose of the electric golf cart and around town car. :)
 
alarmguy said:
EV would fit in nicely for couples around town vehicle and with taxpayers footing $7,500 at point of sale starting 2024 is the slam dunk.
A small EV like the Bolt or Equinox fills the community purpose of the electric golf cart and around town car. :)
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yep, $7500 off at price of purchase is pretty fantastic. If we assume Equinox EV is $35K that's like a 20% discount!
 
Passport1 said:
EVs will stall out.

The primary reason is that anthropomorphic global warming is a fanstasma. Most people know it. Another recent study from a scientific group in Norway said that any temp increase is insignificant and can't be attributed to human activity.

Drip, drip, drip.
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On this site? more like derp, derp, derp., when it comes to EVs. Takes a lot to separate the wheat from the chaff on this particular sub forum.
 
UncleDave said:
Is demand for EV's slowing? It's not really that cut and dried.

Originally when Telsa reported a dip in China growth it was easy to claim "EV sales" are slowing but then GMs dip was more severe (12% v 14%)

In terms of EV sales-

Ford is up YTY.
Kia EV6 sales are up.
BMW is up.
VW is up.
Even GM claims their Q3 EV demand is up - then this.

Remember this was all going to be very easy to do, Tesla had no advantages, and the market would be flooded with cheap EV's that all performed the same.
Now in a complete reversal its hard and no one can make money at it.

Aside from the now defunct bolt, GM's EV offerings are extremely expensive rich guy products.
What people aren't going to do is buy 60K EV's that arent competitive, or 100K trucks that cant tow regardless of who makes them.

The Silverado appears to be best of breed, but they arent going to be very available and dealers will jack the price to the moon.

This feels a lot like sour grapes.


https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45586672/ev-demand-trends-gm-ford/
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Even Musk knows this and why the warning to Tesla shareholders on the money losing truck he is finally selling after multi year promises and delays.

Oh wait it’s not Tesla‘s fledgling business it’s interest rates that are the fault.
Investors business daily criticized him for being a whiner and making excuses
 
When the demand for EV's suddenly spikes again and Ford and GM start panicking because they slow-walked their EV development programs and now have crummy EV's for sale, they will probably react just like they did during the 80's.
And we'll see wonderful engineering developments like the V8-6-4 and the diesel engine converted from an existing V8 engine.

This is what happens when you don't have the capital necessary to plan for the future. In the meantime Tesla will continue to slog along, gradually improving their manufacturing techniques, increasing their production capacity and developing improved batteries.

And funneling additional capital into other product and service categories that will create very profitable cash flow channels for the company.
 
The big guys are finding Tesla's price war brutal. How long can they go on losing billions on their EV business?
Tesla continues to gain efficiencies; the legacy companies struggle to compete on a cost basis.
I expect more companies to adopt Tesla's mfg processes. Toyota is smart to incorporate Giga Castings and structural battery packs.
 
wag123 said:
GM, Honda, and now Ford.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-delays-ev-manufacturing-investment-cars-too-expensive-2023-10
It appears that Toyota's approach has been right all along.
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100% agree there is no one size fits all. Pickups with electric drive trains are poor work trucks overall; they seem to be more lifestyle vehicles to me. But at $80K and up from there, that's a tough sell.
But is is also true Toyota and others misread the EV business. Now they are getting killed by the Tesla price wars and manufacturing efficiency.

Your article's title says as much, I believe:
"Ford pauses a $12 billion EV investment, after saying electric vehicles are too expensive"
 
It's almost as if Toyota really does know the market they're in.. and they were correct in saying the infrastructure wasn't there to go 100% EV for everyone.. The electric grid can't even support people turning their a/c on during a heat wave.. But somehow we're all going electric? Try and upgrade the infrastructure first.. but that's too logical!!

anyway.. I love how people want to discount Toyota or say they're out of touch with reality.. just remember.. they didn't get to where they are today by being dumb..
 
alarmguy said:
Woke (no pun intended) up to the fact that current EV technology is not going to win over the masses as fast as they thought.
Nothing wrong with that, had to run with it until the picture became more clear. We haven't even started out the gate with EVs yet and already signs that supply (production) may vastly outstrip what was projected demand in the USA anyway.
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it's amazing how much winning over the masses you can accomplish via gov't fiat, and yet still they come up short.
 
Ws6 said:
Good. I want Honda to make their own stuff. We don't need GM ruining that.
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This was my thought. I can think of very few things I would want less than a GM built Honda product. Just above that is the VW built Ford.
 
JeffKeryk said:
The big guys are finding Tesla's price war brutal. How long can they go on losing billions on their EV business?
Tesla continues to gain efficiencies; the legacy companies struggle to compete on a cost basis.
I expect more companies to adopt Tesla's mfg processes. Toyota is smart to incorporate Giga Castings and structural battery packs.
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Giga castings are smart for the auto manufacturers and their profit margins, but bad for consumers, their insurance companies, and body shops. Vehicles using this manufacturing process are easily totaled in relatively minor collisions.
 
My guess is the decision to now just update the Bolt EUV made this partnership redundant.

They were going to make cheap, “compact crossovers” together, which is essentially what the EUV is, or can easily be in its 2nd Generation.
 
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wag123 said:
Giga castings are smart for the auto manufacturers and their profit margins, but bad for consumers, their insurance companies, and body shops. Vehicles using this manufacturing process are easily totaled in relatively minor collisions.
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That remains to be seen. The Tesla design castings have specific areas that can be cut out and replaced with partial castings.
If the damage was substantial, the car would be totaled anyway.

Time will tell how this works out.
 
You’d think if the Giga Castings were such a no-brainer cost savings that the Model 3 Highland would have gotten them? Yet they have none 🤔 My guess is even the Model 3 doesn’t have the sales volume to make them beneficial. Need the volume of a Model Y or better to really make sense(??)
 
UncleDave said:
Did Tesla flip on this?

https://thedriven.io/2023/08/15/new...uction-at-scale-with-giant-giga-casting-tech/
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From what I’ve seen, yes. Castings never happened with the Highland. Tesla posted some body-in-white CGI photos at the Highland release and none had castings.

Then this huge Twitter account (TroyTeslike) that specializes in manufacturing/sales data says absolutely no.

“Neither the old Model 3 nor the Model 3 Highland have any castings at any factory.”






https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...acastings-structural-battery-pack-221225.html
 
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The current EV push appears to be too much too soon.
Tesla has established itself as the leader in EV cars and many people don't entirely trust GM or Ford based upon prior experience with their products. EVs remain a niche product and Tesla owns that niche.
EVs will achieve far greater market share over time, but the day that they are even a quarter of new vehicles sold is at least a decade away and probably more like two. I can see how something like a Model 3 would work just fine for us, not as a be-all, do-all, but as a vehicle that would suit 80% of the driving we do each week.
I could see both Toyota and VW being successful in this space since both have strong financial and engineering resources and neither is ruled by short term thinking.
GM and Ford not so much.
 
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