gf-5 oils lacking when it comes to lspi??

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infimium look at graph, lower phos then gf-5 allows nearly zero lspi... Infineum increased the phosphorus level from 0.05% to 0.19% in the test oil. ZDDP has an exponential decrease in LSPI activity - higher levels of ZDDP reduced over 90% of LSPI events compared to the number that occurred with the 0.05% ZDDP oil, confirming ZDDP as an LSPI quencher. Sep 16 LSP2 Effect of increased concentration of ZDDP in Baseline Oil 1 on LSPI Further evaluation of ZDDP, looking at different alkyl length groups at fixed phosphorus levels, did not reveal statistically significant effects, confirming ZDDP to be a quencher regardless of chemistry. These observations open up the debate for increasing the phosphorus maximum levels in the next generation of Industry and OEM lubricant specifications.
 
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Interesting point ^^^^ Question is would increasing phos equate to earlier poisoning of the catalytic converters in vehicles ?? Which are not cheap to have replaced. . If I'm not mistaken molybdenum also helped prevent LSPI as well.
 

burla

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Originally Posted by bbhero
Interesting point ^^^^ Question is would increasing phos equate to earlier poisoning of the catalytic converters in vehicles ?? Which are not cheap to have replaced. . If I'm not mistaken molybdenum also helped prevent LSPI as well.
Cat's are pretty cheap in most cars, and yes moly and ester base is good at quenching lspi as well. Lubegard biotech sounds about perfect for aiding gf-5 low levels as it has all of that. Even when zddp was 1200 I surely don't remember a lot of cats gumming up. Compare replacing cats to replacing a di engine, easy choice?
 
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Cats weren't cheap in my car.... $1400... That's not cheap in my book. Yeah I think you are right though... When zinc and phos levels were higher I don't remember that being a huge, huge issue either. Now my regular cat is cheap thank goodness LOL

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Does ACEA higher P and ZDDP levels solely explain near 'absence' of LSPI of Euro oils in Euro engines ? Hence use of ACEA Euro motor oils could possibly alleviate LSPI in American engines ?
 

burla

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Originally Posted by bbhero
Cats weren't cheap in my car.... $1400... That's not cheap in my book. Yeah I think you are right though... When zinc and phos levels were higher I don't remember that being a huge, huge issue either. Now my regular cat is cheap thank goodness LOL
man that's nuts. I suggest people look up their application and cat options before making a decision. Magnaflo has some like 75 bucks..
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Cats weren't cheap in my car.... $1400... That's not cheap in my book. Yeah I think you are right though... When zinc and phos levels were higher I don't remember that being a huge, huge issue either. Now my regular cat is cheap thank goodness LOL
ROYAL PURPLE HPS had higher phosphorus and zinc levels and I've never once seen where it was an issue with catalytic converters.
 
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Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by bbhero
Cats weren't cheap in my car.... $1400... That's not cheap in my book. Yeah I think you are right though... When zinc and phos levels were higher I don't remember that being a huge, huge issue either. Now my regular cat is cheap thank goodness LOL
man that's nuts. I suggest people look up their application and cat options before making a decision. Magnaflo has some like 75 bucks..
And some cars have two! Most OEM cats are over $1k/each for newer cars. OEM cats are usually the only ones which are legal in CA and also, the only ones that last.
 
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Originally Posted by zeng
Does ACEA higher P and ZDDP levels solely explain near 'absence' of LSPI of Euro oils in Euro engines ? Hence use of ACEA Euro motor oils could possibly alleviate LSPI in American engines ?
I think an argument could definitely be made that the ZDDP link to LSPI reduction could explain why we don't hear about lots of LSPI issues in DITs running high calcium A3/B4 oils. I actually bought some ZDDP additive and put small amounts in my oil before dexos1 Gen 2 went live, although that was probably overkill as I was already running low Ca/Na M1 5W30 at the time. That curve in the Infineum paper that the OPer referenced was the catalyst for this, timeframe was 2016/7 before we had d1G2. I am a lot happier with using d1G2/SN+ oils that have actually been tested for LSPI mitigation than running A3/B4 oils at this point, though.
 
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Originally Posted by burla
man that's nuts. I suggest people look up their application and cat options before making a decision. Magnaflo has some like 75 bucks..
Really? I thought it was the rare metals (including platinum in some applications) in catalytic converters that made them expensive...is the $75 unit actually functional or just a placeholder??
 
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I'm wondering if the whole phosphorus and zinc concern with catalytic converters also ties in with many newer cars using lower spring tension rings allowing more blowby/burnoff of oil. Given that cats are supposed to carry a 10 year warranty, I can see manufacturers wanting to replace zero. Converter for my car also runs about 1400 bucks. Subaru replaced it once with a recall because of bad ECU programming...
 
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Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by bbhero
Cats weren't cheap in my car.... $1400... That's not cheap in my book. Yeah I think you are right though... When zinc and phos levels were higher I don't remember that being a huge, huge issue either. Now my regular cat is cheap thank goodness LOL
man that's nuts. I suggest people look up their application and cat options before making a decision. Magnaflo has some like 75 bucks..
Yeah I wish...CA (C.A.R.B) compliant cat's are &500+ EACH for my ride on RA.. and the el cheapo non CA compliant one's are still $300+ each...so yeah, I could see cat replacement easily costing north of a thousand dollars.
 
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Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by burla
man that's nuts. I suggest people look up their application and cat options before making a decision. Magnaflo has some like 75 bucks..
Really? I thought it was the rare metals (including platinum in some applications) in catalytic converters that made them expensive...is the $75 unit actually functional or just a placeholder??
Sounds like a cat back/bypass..in which case I could fab one in my garage for probably less than that....‚
 

burla

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All valid points coming, and use your google and see options for Cats., yes OEM will drop you some dough, not saying that going from .05 to .19 phos will damage those cats, but it is still a valid concern. Just less concern then having to shell out money for a twin turbo eco boost that I have no idea what it would cost to replace, maybe the budget of a small island or something. Just many things to consider when buying one of these new modern engines, pick your poisen, make an informed choice and assess your own risk, don't buy into someone elses program or strategy on how to take care of your equipment, conisder all things and make your own strategy.
 

burla

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If you don't want to consider a phos boost (and maybe an ester base) for a di engine, at a minimum look at a high moly gf-5 oil would be where i'd go. Despite the advantage of using phos I seriously doubt they will raise phos in gf-6, that is not how our government works.
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Interesting point ^^^^ Question is would increasing phos equate to earlier poisoning of the catalytic converters in vehicles ??
If the car is not burning oil (less than 1/2 QT in 3,000 miles) then the cat won't see the ZDDP.
 
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Funny.... Because Toyota was selling cars in the mid 2000s that burned a qt every every 1200 miles and telling people that was normal... Nothing against Toyota... The lady and I really love her 98 Camry... Though it does burn about a qt every 3k miles. That car runs great though and is not hardly cost us any money in the past 5 and half years... Very impressive for a 21 year old car.
 
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