Genuine Kia/Hyundai oil filter 5650 mi cut open

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
OEM Hyundai/Kia filter is garbage compared to any aftermarket filter with silicone anti drain back valve and synthetic media. There is a comparison between the Hyundai OEM filter vs a Mobil I EP filter. The Mobil I EP filtered as much as 5 times the particles as the Hyundai filter.

With all the issues Hyundai has had,why anyone would use the OEM filter is beyond me.To top it all off,many still run conventional oil in todays engines.

So where is the data for failed Hyundai engines caused by using the OEM filter?


I never said the OEM filter caused engine failures. I am saying,why use oem when there are many filters that will filter better.

 

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
OEM Hyundai/Kia filter is garbage compared to any aftermarket filter with silicone anti drain back valve and synthetic media. There is a comparison between the Hyundai OEM filter vs a Mobil I EP filter. The Mobil I EP filtered as much as 5 times the particles as the Hyundai filter.
Using the Mobil 1 EP filter as the example is wrong here, since you are saying you like synthetic media oil filters. The M1 EP oil filter uses a blend of cellulose and glass fiber media. Fram Ultra, Puro Boss, Royal Purple, and Amsoil EaO oil filters are the only ones I know of that have full synthetic glass fiber media. (Certain MB oil filters notwithstanding.)


I agree with you and would choose any of the filters you listed over the Mobil 1 EP filter. I mentioned it as it was the filter compared to the Hyundai.I will try to dig up the numbers.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Toptierpao


I never said the OEM filter caused engine failures. I am saying,why use oem when there are many filters that will filter better.


OK, you are in the "always better" crowd. Gotcha!

You made incendiary statements against the OEM filters, just wanted to see what data you had that made them "garbage" and a poor choice?

 

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao


I never said the OEM filter caused engine failures. I am saying,why use oem when there are many filters that will filter better.


OK, you are in the "always better" crowd. Gotcha!

You made incendiary statements against the OEM filters, just wanted to see what data you had that made them "garbage" and a poor choice?


Correct,when backed up by data and/or personal experience in the automotive world. As mentioned in my previous post,I will dig it up in the next couple of days.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Why mess with anything less than a Fram Ultra? Its not like it costs much more, and many times less. Wire-backing handles pressure spikes these Kias are famous for. Ultra has greater efficiency. All glass fiber, no cellulose paper in the Ultra media. Ultra holds more dirt.

Is there a concern about an Ultra can bursting under too much pressure? I guess thats the only rational reason I can think of to use the heavy gauge OEM filter. Yet Fram does put their Ultra through a lot of tests:

Fram oil filter tests: "Mechanical and Durability tests. Oil filters are also subjected to numerous tests to assure the integrity of the filter and its components during vehicle operating conditions. These tests include Burst Pressure, Impulse Fatigue, Vibration, Relief Valve and Anti-Drainback Valve operation, and Hot Oil Durability."


I'm not running a Fram Ultra for a couple reasons on this car. First and foremost is because a Fram employee (Jay) posted here on the forum that Fram was redesigning this filter for a higher burst strength because of the oil pressure spike issues. Because of the redesign I'm sure the new filters are tough enough to take anything the engine can throw at it. However I didnt want to risk getting an old stock filter that was pre redesign. So that's reason number one.

Number two, the Fram Ultra at the best price I can get online is still twice the cost of the OE filter and when I'm servicing someone else's car there is an expectation that I'm changing the oil and filter every time so running the filter for 2x OCI to reduce the per OCI expense isn't an option.

Three, I'm using components that will not raise questions should he have an issue during his factory warranty. Also the OEM filter is arguably better than the jobber tier filter that Pep Boys would be putting on this car.

Obviously everyone is entitled to use whatever filters they like on their own engines. I'm completely comfortable using the OEM filter for this application.

 

[SHOZ]

When was the last time you ever heard of an oil filter blowing up from too much pressure? My Genesis Coupe has seen around 90 lbs peak oil pressure, 85lbs is the normal peak at 7500 rpm on 0w40 oil.

 

[Arved]

Shoz,

I think Luke's conservative approach is warranted given FRAM's decision to redesign it's filter. However, if they're redesigning the filter without changing the part number, that's pretty sloppy configuration management. "That wouldn't fly" on his P-3Cs or P-8As.

Respectfully,

 

[knerml]

You can compare filter specs all day long, but they do not tell the whole story.

Engines have complex lubrication systems.

How a filter performs (flow, back pressure and filtration) at various engine RPMs (ie, oil pressure) and it's role in the lubrication system is the key here.

I believe we are seeing engine manufactures reducing MPG losses caused by all engine components, including oil pumps and lubrication systems. This may be reducing oil pressures and back pressure (oil pump drag), and is making oil filter design more critical.

This may be why some after market oil filters are causing valve train noise in some Hyundai/Kia engines.

To not use a cost effective (Kia OEM oil filter might not be a wise choice.

NOTE: The Hyundai/Kia engine recall is because of a manufacturing process problems with their engines make in the USA. Not an oil filter or design problem.

 

[SHOZ]

How is the Hyundai filter "proven"? About the only thing it proves is oil filters are not as important as all here make them out to be.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When was the last time you ever heard of an oil filter blowing up from too much pressure? My Genesis Coupe has seen around 90 lbs peak oil pressure, 85lbs is the normal peak at 7500 rpm on 0w40 oil.


The issue is specific to the 4cyl Hyundai/Kia engine with momentary pressure spikes observed in excess of 125 PSI, the OEM filter is built to handle the pressure spike issues, the redesigned Fram according to Jay has an increase in burst pressure from 250 PSI to 350 PSI for these applications. I've seen it written that the OEM filter burst pressure is in the realm of 500 PSI.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

See below for the quote from a rep in regards to the issue.

Hyundai and Kia both are having oil pressure spiking issues. The Hyundai solution is to have Mann build what is nearly a racing filter in construction. Premium Guard filters can barely hold 200psi without blowing out the O ring so they issued a service bulliten saying they will supply the OES filter until they can redesign their filter for this application. We upped our burst strength on this filter PH9688 to 360psi from 240 due to this issue. Using "low cost region" filters on these engines may cost you an engine if you are not careful.
_________________________
Jay M Buckley
FRAM
(248) 808-4551
[email protected]

 

[SHOZ]

It must be the models that have the leaking oil pressure switches. No problem with my 4 cylinder Accent at 150k miles. Filters used, Purolator, Fram, Hyundai, Wix.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Arved
However, if they're redesigning the filter without changing the part number, that's pretty sloppy configuration management. "That wouldn't fly" on his P-3Cs or P-8As.

I can see why they wouldn't change the actual filter number ... it would cause too much confusion to the customer and all the application data would have to be updated (huge undertaking). They probably changed the Fram internal p/n, but left the number on the can the same. No harm doing that for configuration control in the consumer world.

 

[blupupher]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Arved
However, if they're redesigning the filter without changing the part number, that's pretty sloppy configuration management. "That wouldn't fly" on his P-3Cs or P-8As.

I can see why they wouldn't change the actual filter number ... it would cause too much confusion to the customer and all the application data would have to be updated (huge undertaking). They probably changed the Fram internal p/n, but left the number on the can the same. No harm doing that for configuration control in the consumer world.

But adding a letter to the end of the filter number would help differentiate it from the "weaker" can. Fram should just label it PH9688(H). Same filter number, with a letter to differentiate it from the previous one.
For now you would need to know the date the change was made at Fram, then pull the filter out before buying and decipher the date code.

 

[goodtimes]

Good oil filter folks, there was a Fram video showing the burst test. The pressure was something like 350 if I remember right as the man cranked up the pressure. The gasket blew out, not the can. Pretty sure I remember it right.

 

[goodtimes]

There was another Fram test video for surge testing. The can were shown expanding in and out, sort of interesting and amazing to see the cans take that torture. If remember right which I think I do.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Arved
However, if they're redesigning the filter without changing the part number, that's pretty sloppy configuration management. "That wouldn't fly" on his P-3Cs or P-8As.

I can see why they wouldn't change the actual filter number ... it would cause too much confusion to the customer and all the application data would have to be updated (huge undertaking). They probably changed the Fram internal p/n, but left the number on the can the same. No harm doing that for configuration control in the consumer world.

But adding a letter to the end of the filter number would help differentiate it from the "weaker" can. Fram should just label it PH9688(H). Same filter number, with a letter to differentiate it from the previous one.
For now you would need to know the date the change was made at Fram, then pull the filter out before buying and decipher the date code.


They could, and have in the past. But why go through all the hassle and cost when the old stock will get bought and used up. If there was a major problem with the current Fram they would immediately stop producing it and recall all the ones on the shelves, and send out a TSB. That's not the case, Fram is just making an improvement to make the filter better in the future, not to fix a current problem on the streets.

 

[goodtimes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttLaWepdL0

This video was a good selling point. Haven't seen any other show this.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Toptierpao

Correct,when backed up by data and/or personal experience in the automotive world. As mentioned in my previous post,I will dig it up in the next couple of days.


3 days and counting.....................

 

[blupupher]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

They could, and have in the past. But why go through all the hassle and cost when the old stock will get bought and used up. If there was a major problem with the current Fram they would immediately stop producing it and recall all the ones on the shelves, and send out a TSB. That's not the case, Fram is just making an improvement to make the filter better in the future, not to fix a current problem on the streets.

Is this why there is a PH8A, PH49A, PH2870A, PH3387A etc?