Generator use and CO detector

[Quest]

I'm with lars RE: CO safety issues.

Back during 07 winter storm, WA had numerous incidents (and deaths) RE: CO poisoning due to people down electricity--they hauled charcoal/profane BBQ stove into the house to stay warm...but w/o sufficient ventilation.

Also: during this year's Toronto area's power outage (due to ice storm), there has also been several similar incidents as well.

Stay safe. I have 3 CO detectors throughout the house: 2 AC based (with battery backup, one has digital readings) and one battery type (4 AA cells, no reading). This combination has saved me and ma family at least 2 times during the fall due to sudden backdrafting from the natural gas boiler when temperature suddenly dropped.... Well, problem resolved now so hopefully, no more triggering of CO alarms.

Q.

 

[SHOZ]

Charcoal or Propane? I'd buy the charcoal buy open flame propane would have to be starved for Oxygen to make CO.

 

[RF Overlord]

Can we all agree that eating lots of cabbage generates vapours, while eating lots of burritos generates fumes?

 

[SHOZ]

Current open flame propane and nat gas appliances have O2 depletion sensors on them that will turn them off before CO becomes a problem.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

I can't imagine being dumb enough to run any combustion based, unvented heater inside an enclosed building (garage, house, shop, etc.). Period. It's just common sense not to do so, but common sense seems to be in short supply.

I also can't imagine being dumb enough to position a generator so that the engine fumes enter the house (in a garage, near a window, etc.). Period. It's just common sense to position it so it's not venting into the house, but again, common sense seems to be in short supply. I also can't imagine having a house so poorly built that it allows fumes from outdoors in unless a window is open, but that's a discussion for another thread.

I also can't imagine not having carbon monoxide and propane gas detectors in the house, garage and shop. Along with smoke/fire detectors and water alarms in the basement. It's just common sense, but common sense seems to be in short supply.

 

[SHOZ]

You know that ventless gas heaters are quite legal and safe. They have O2 detectors that shut them down when the O2 gets low enough to cause CO formation. This is nothing new.

Gas ovens and stove tops have been around for how many years? These are open flame devices and not one that is inside a combustion chamber where the O2 might be limited.

Do you really think they could be sold if they were as hazardous as you are making this out to be?

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Current open flame propane and nat gas appliances have O2 depletion sensors on them that will turn them off before CO becomes a problem.


That's not correct. CO can be a major problem before the O2 level changes. The air we breath is 20.9% O2 on average. CO starts to become dangerous in a short amount of time in concentrations over 600PPM. 600PPM is .06%. That takes the O2 level to 20.84%. Most O2 sensors don't go off until they're below 19.5% O2. So this means you can have a deadly level of CO before the O2 level even changes that much.

However, there really is not an O2 "sensor" in these. These devices measure the pilot flame. The smaller the pilot flame the lower the O2. When the flame reaches a certain low flame point, the thermocouple deactivates and shuts the fuel off.

After all its the lack of O2 in your blood stream due to CO binding to your hemoglobin that kills people. The only way to recover those red blood cells is to let them die and regenerate. The average life of a red blood cell is around 7 days IRC.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Current open flame propane and nat gas appliances have O2 depletion sensors on them that will turn them off before CO becomes a problem.


That's not correct. CO can be a major problem before the O2 level changes. The air we breath is 20.9% O2 on average in the Midwest. CO starts to become dangerous in a short amount of time in concentrations over 600PPM. 600PPM is .06%. That takes the O2 level to 20.84%. Most O2 sensors don't go off until they're below 19.5% O2.


So how is it these heaters get approval for sale? Have you ever actually read up on them?

Here is the one I have.

Empire Blue Flame

The burner is equal to about one gas stove top burner at high flame, certainly less than two or the oven and one burner.

My house leaks air so it is constantly being replenished. I have a specific situation that enables my use of it as so do many others. I am still alive. If I quit posting for a few years then I probably am not.

This is not for a very tight house that gets no air exchange. And if you live in a house like that then CO2 from breathing and humidity will build up to unhealthy levels too.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Current open flame propane and nat gas appliances have O2 depletion sensors on them that will turn them off before CO becomes a problem.


That's not correct. CO can be a major problem before the O2 level changes. The air we breath is 20.9% O2 on average in the Midwest. CO starts to become dangerous in a short amount of time in concentrations over 600PPM. 600PPM is .06%. That takes the O2 level to 20.84%. Most O2 sensors don't go off until they're below 19.5% O2.


So how is it these heaters get approval for sale? Have you ever actually read up on them?

Here is the one I have.

Empire Blue Flame

The burner is equal to about one gas stove top burner at high flame, certainly less than two or the oven and one burner.

My house leaks air so it is constantly being replenished. I have a specific situation that enables my use of it as so do many others. I am still alive. If I quit posting for a few years then I probably am not.

This is not for a very tight house that gets no air exchange. And if you live in a house like that then CO2 from breathing and humidity will build up to unhealthy levels too.



You didn't read the rest of my post. My point was to show you that you can have dangerous levels of CO that can be fatal and still have adequate O2 in the air.

Edit - I just looked at the model you have. It does claim to be almost 100% efficient. I'd love to see what the actual emissions are. From the literature, yes you should be safe theoretically. The thing I'd be skeptical about is a malfunction and something not working properly. I'd buy a CO/CO2 monitor immediately just in case.

 

[SHOZ]

Sorry, I quoted the post as it was. You must have done a ninja edit.

The bottom line is gas stoves and cook tops have been in use in houses for over 100 years. These are no different as far as their combustion by products. The difference is a guarded flame.

 

[JimPghPA]

(Ventless / complete combustion) heaters replace oxygen with non toxic CO2 and there are several situations where these type of heaters probably should not be used. If anyone in the area being heated has any cardiovascular problems, it probably would be a good idea to not use them, as they have enough problems keeping their blood oxygen level at a proper level without the added burden of breathing in air with a reduced amount of oxygen.

Personally I am not comfortable with the idea of relying on a single safety system that is designed to shut off these type of heaters if the air is becoming too bad. I want some kind of redundant safety on anything I would be placing lives on.